In this RedMonk conversation, Chris Corriere, Founder of Ecology Computing and an organizer of Devopsdays Atlanta, shares his unique perspective on socio-technical systems, complexity in computing, and the future of DevOps practices with Kate Holterhoff. They discuss how ecological thinking influences technology and how mapping tools like Cynefin and Wardley Maps can help navigate complex environments.
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Transcript
Kate Holterhoff (00:04)
Hello and welcome to this Redmonk Conversation. My name is Kate Holterhoff. I’m a senior analyst at RedMonk and with me today, I have Chris Corriere. He’s the founder of Ecology Computing and an organizer of Devopsdays Atlanta. He’s also a leader in platform engineering as it relates to DevOps and SRE practices. Chris, thanks so much for joining me on the MonkCast.
Chris Corriere (00:22)
Thanks for having me.
Kate Holterhoff (00:23)
so jazz to have you on here. So Chris and I are good friends. We’re both in Atlanta. I actually did a lightning talk at Devopsdays Atlanta last year, which was super fun. I’ve been dying to get him here on the podcast to tell us about all the cool stuff that he’s working on, especially around DevOps, So let’s go ahead and dig right into this. Chris, let’s hear about your background What is ecology? What do you do? Who are you?
Chris Corriere (00:46)
Sure, so ecology computing is my center of practice, which I consult out of sometimes. And we’ve started open sourcing some software. I’ve got a light blog engine called Vanilla Compost that renders in Markdown and is pretty much vanilla JavaScript and HTML. Put that out last year, that’s what runs my personal site.
And ecology is really about an ecological perspective on socio-technical system design. I often have people assume I’m a deep environmentalist, which I do love the planet. I do love nature and everything. I’m a bit more pragmatic and realistic about consumer impact versus corporate impact on the environment. And that is a complex problem. That is a socio-technical problem.
So when we get into technology, we often like to center on silicon, know, phones and the internet and computers. But I’ve got a much broader perspective from a socio-technical perspective on what technology is. That’s everything from the clothing as a tool, how we dress plays into how we’re perceived. Sometimes clothing plays into the work we’re doing if we need gloves or hats or face masks to be able to do our jobs. So it’s a much broader perspective on technology and how that interacts with human existence and can make our lives better or worse depending on how we’re leveraging it.
Kate Holterhoff (02:25)
Okay, that helps me. I’m interested in how you frame yourself as a socio-technical mathematician and complexity scientist. So what does that exactly mean? Because I, you’re right that when we hear these terms, folks are not of you as an environmentalist, but also someone maybe who’s working in sociology. I’m interested in how computing comes into that. Can you dig into that idea a little bit more?
Chris Corriere (02:51)
Sure. So I have always been good at math. I would say probably since middle school I got a reputation of being good at math.
A lot of people hit algebra and maybe some geometry or pre-calculus or trigonometry and stop there. I was a math major for a long time. My bachelor’s is actually in integrative studies. So I took a lot of math courses, took a lot of electrical engineering courses. I worked on campus at Southern Polytechnic State University before it assimilated into Kennesaw State, which is where my degree is from. The flavor of mathematician I am,
is an enumerative combinatorics So an enumerative combinatorics. So the different ways you can combine a set of objects or system states or what have you, we like to enumerate those, which is to count them. So I think it’s a quote from Spock that once you’ve considered everything that’s possible, like
Kate Holterhoff (03:33)
Or the what?
Chris Corriere (03:55)
what has to happen has to be in that set. Like once you removed everything that’s impossible, only what’s possible remains. So figuring out different states of systems, what type of configurations they hold, that sort of dovetails into Shannon theory and the idea of requisite variety within a system.
that controls from the systems have to have the same variety of the system itself to be able to steer it and help navigate and regulate the system you’re operating with or interacting within. And if your system does not contain humans, then what’s the point? I think with AI right now, we’re…
running towards agents screaming at each other in the cloud that may not be delivering any value to any real people on planet Earth, which is not a good thing. zooming out on it a little bit, a friend and mentor of mine, John Willis, who you know well from Devopsdays last year, he’s got history saying, you know, it was really more a political play that we ended up with the term artificial intelligence instead of cybernetics.
Kate Holterhoff (05:01)
yeah.
Chris Corriere (05:12)
But if you dig into classic cybernetics and the idea of agency, it’s not just people in the system. Your thermostat has control over your air conditioner and your furnace and can change the temperature in your house. So it’s got a level of agency. It lacks a level of autonomy. It can’t decide what the temperature should be. It can only regulate the system, hot or cold. Where we’ve moved with agentic AI is
They don’t only have agency, they’ve got a level of autonomy where they can make newer decisions and move outside abounds if there aren’t guardrails in place and well-written prompts, say.
Kate Holterhoff (05:56)
Okay, I’m glad we already brought in AI. Like my job here is done. usually we kind of end up there, but here we are. No, that’s helpful. And John is great. and I think another thing that your perspective is reminding me of is that I’ve spoken to developers who ask if they need to be good at math in order to be successful with computers. Do you get that question a lot? Is that something that folks ask you?
Chris Corriere (06:23)
It is. I think I get pulled into debates on it more than asked if it’s true or not. So it depends on how much math and what type of developer you’re looking to be. Some of it is deeply mathematic. A lot of software that’s written at the presentation level, less so. So if you’re in data science or something and
Kate Holterhoff (06:29)
Tell me more.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Corriere (06:53)
are looking at MapReduce or hierarchical navigable small worlds is like a search algorithm that’s very specific. If you want to go look it up, can dig into that for a while. I use…
I’ve used mathematical tools like sterling numbers of the second kind, which is a form of enumeration. I get deep into game theory, including Nash games, when designing incentives for users in a system. Not everybody needs to dig into all that and…
You mentioned DevOps before, think zooming out to platform engineering where we’re aligning DevOps and SRE practices across value streams. The point of a solid platform is to abstract a lot of the complexity, a lot of the details out. So end users or even developers within the system don’t have to worry about details like IAC or how, you know, what algorithms the search is running under the hood.
Kate Holterhoff (07:50)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Corriere (08:03)
There’s absolutely room for developers with less mathematical backgrounds to come in and provide value in other ways. It gets back into that requisite variety that if we’re dealing with a diverse set of users, humans on the planet that want to use our platform or software, we need diverse humans inside helping to develop it. So some of the less mathematical people, I would say that
I think bring really interesting perspective or linguists. We talk about computer science and what programming language you’re using. So a lot of that understanding of grammar and syntax and formatting come into play with how we describe clean code. I’ve also been running into a lot of art historians lately. So I think folks coming from a visual background of any sort and have an artistic perspective
definitely play into clean UI and user experience. And we’re talking about developer experience more. I, the example I’ve always gone with is in a, perfect organization, say, they wouldn’t need a ton of onboarding and training for new developers. The things are just sort of available and self-service, well-documented and people that have a level of agency and autonomy.
can tag in and make changes as they need, that it doesn’t matter if it’s attorneys and legal or janitorial services. Somebody wants to update something on the website, they can go find the code and source control, it’s documented, they can submit a pull request and get changes out into production. Open source kind of depends on this, but we often see a lot more red tape in… trying to get changes into production when we’re working in enterprises and even small businesses to some extent.
Kate Holterhoff (10:04)
Yeah, So can you talk at all about some of the projects that you’ve been working on recently? I know you’ve not only have some open source projects, but what sort of, bigger enterprise things have you been looking at?
Chris Corriere (10:16)
I think one interesting space is source control. I do love GitHub. I use GitHub a lot. they, got in a little bit of hot water, charging for self-hosted, Git runners lately. and there’s been some, interest in other options for source control. so I’ve been doing a lot of work with GitLab lately.
Kate Holterhoff (10:20)
Okay.
Chris Corriere (10:37)
including self-hosted GitLab, spinning that up within EKS and the most efficient way to run it in cloud compute. Also, Jujitsu source control, version control, is gaining some popularity in some circles. That one’s not as popular. But the long-standing rule we had in the DevOps community
around source control or IAC is as long as you’re using something, don’t not use IAC, don’t not use source control. If you’re still saving everything in like a folder on your hard drive and not checking it in anywhere, you’re not doing yourself any favors. And this is a lot of the work I’ve been doing through ecology lately. I described some of what I do with ecology is a platform salvage and recovery.
A lot of Vibe Coders are entering the market now who don’t have a broader experience with all the technology that is involved with getting an application, not only running on your laptop, but deployed out to where users around the world can access it and doing that safely and efficiently. you would be surprised the number of times I’ve also tagged in with.
data scientists on data platform engineering projects that have PhDs and are very smart people and have never used source control before in their entire life. We end up having to do some training there. So it’s, I do believe you can learn a lot from anyone. Like it’s interesting to collaborate with different people and see what they bring to the table.
Kate Holterhoff (11:59)
Wow.
Chris Corriere (12:11)
And a lot of the times that’s been a common skills gap is just not being super familiar with how to use Git, whether you’re in GitLab or GitHub or another source control offering.
Kate Holterhoff (12:24)
Yeah, yeah, I know when I talk to fresh graduates from college, that’s one of the first things that I say is you need to join a team so that you can work on PRs and merge problems It certainly seemed to be a big differentiator between folks fresh out of boot camp or whatever and folks who had experienced the horror of a large team and a brownfield project.
Chris Corriere (12:47)
Correct. And I like, I think the idea that Greenfield projects exist is super interesting. It ties into that abstraction at a platform level. So maybe you’re starting a new application for yourself or a company or a project within a larger organization. And we want to believe that’s Greenfield and there’s zero tech debt, but I guarantee you, if you go open the…
Kate Holterhoff (12:55)
Go on.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Corriere (13:17)
GitHub repos for any of the projects you’re using, are bugs that need to be fixed, security vulnerabilities need to get patched, system incompatibility issues. One area of research I’m pursuing through ecology now is just looking at the CNCF landscape. You know, the big subway map they have with all the logos on it. How many of those work well together in production?
Kate Holterhoff (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
yes. yeah.
Chris Corriere (13:44)
You can’t use all of them. You probably need some of them, but some of them mix like oil and water. And, you know, the day before launch is not the time to find out that the ends aren’t quite going to meet like you’d hope. So that’s a good example of we have all these options within this space. What different enumerations are valid paths forward that you can actually run a project and application with this subset.
Kate Holterhoff (13:58)
God you
Chris Corriere (14:12)
of what’s available through CNCF.
Kate Holterhoff (14:14)
Man, you’re right, you are an ecologist, Chris. you know, this huge environment that’s not entirely in your control and you’re trying to figure out, the relationships between them. And almost like a food chain. I don’t know, that’s interesting.
Chris Corriere (14:27)
I agree, it’s fascinating to me. I can’t get enough of it.
Kate Holterhoff (14:31)
All right, let’s add the other word from your title in here, and that’s complexity. You know, I think we all have an idea of what complexity might mean, but in computer science, it means something kind of specific here. So could you tell us about what complexity means in your own mind?
Chris Corriere (14:47)
So my take on perspective on complexity comes from Dave Snowden who created the Cynefin Ontological Framework that C-Y-N-E-F-I-N rhymes with Kevin. And there are a couple other camps of complexity science I’ve studied with but Dave Snowden’s where I got my start. The way he explains it…
is you’ve got a clear domain or an obvious domain. My contribution to this is that it’s more linear lists work well. So you can think of like a shopping list or a recipe or a checklist, bulleted list. These are ontologically pretty straightforward things we deal with every day. It’s where a lot of people want to start with problem solving. If you move up in that ordered domain,
Kate Holterhoff (15:40)
Mm.
Chris Corriere (15:46)
Outside of clear obvious you end up in complicated, which is a domain that requires a level of expertise This is where maps come into play. So I’m big into value stream mapping and Wardley mapping for dependency chain analysis and Even with something like a light bulb going out. You’ve got a checklist and obvious on is it the bulb is it the switch?
But the second you move to go check the breaker and you open the door on the breaker box, there’s a little map there that tells you which breaker corresponds to the light fixture you’re trying to get to turn on again. If that doesn’t work, then you’ve got to jump over a little bit of a hump into the complex domain. And at that point, you’re no longer in an ordered repeatable system. That first half of Cynefin is ordered in repeatable.
the second half is unordered, you’re not looking for causality, you’re looking for correlation. So typically in a complex domain, you want to run multiple safe to fail experiments and look for something to correlate to tell you where the broader problem might be. So if we flip the breaker and that wasn’t tripped, maybe we look outside as a probe into a complex domain.
See if it’s night, maybe we check to see if the street lamps are on, if we see lights on the neighbor’s house. Maybe if it’s daylight out and we can’t tell, maybe we call a couple neighbors and say, hey, is your power on? Because I’ve got issues in my house. Moving farther down, once we move out of complex, we run into a chaotic domain. And when we’re dealing with chaos,
typical first step is the triage and then sense and respond after we sort of stopped the bleeding or ended the incident. So, you know, with our light bulb example, moving from light switch to breaker box to calling the neighbors, checking the neighborhood. If we found out the power in Atlanta was out, both at my place in Woodstock and closer to where you live on the other side of Decatur that might be
turn a little bit chaotic depending on how long that blackout lasted. And you start to think, you know, do we have food? It’s like when it snows in Atlanta, do we have bread, milk and eggs and toilet paper? And are we going to make it through the night? Or do we need to get out of town and like head to Chattanooga maybe? And then there’s a dip at the bottom on Cynefin between obvious and chaotic and
Kate Holterhoff (18:23)
Yeah.
Chris Corriere (18:38)
There’s a cliff there is what it represents. And the idea here is that if you oversimplify, you’re going to fall off of that cliff into the worst kind of chaos where you don’t even know you’re in a chaotic situation. It’s like your house is on fire and you’re not even aware of it yet. If you come in through the top and a shallow dip into chaos, that’s where novel practice emerges.
and where we learn new things and can pull them back into a complicated domain where it becomes repeatable in a standard operating procedure. And we’re seeing this now with AI, where things get a little bit chaotic from time to time, but we have novel practices emerging that will become standard practice or best practices over time. you know, MCP is like,
not a year and a half old yet, I don’t think. A lot of this stuff is very new and it’s iterating very quickly. There’s a lot of churn. So not all of these practices are stabilizing. Reminds me, I believe total carbon-based life on planet Earth, the fossil record represents about 1 % of it in total. So a lot of these are evolutionary dead ends.
It’s just early and there’s a lot of activity. Who knows how much of this is going to be around a decade from now. And that’s what’s exciting about the DevOps community to me is we’re pushing over 15 years since the first Devopsdays in Ghent. And some of us are still growing strong. And I do believe it’s a result of that focus on the people in the system. There’s always been an emphasis on culture and are we delivering value to humans in real life.
Kate Holterhoff (20:29)
Well, be still my Darwinian heart, you know, talking about extinction and the fossil record here. I love it, this is what my dissertation was on. So I just have a real simple question, possibly. What does Cynefin stand for? Like, is it an acronym?
Chris Corriere (20:33)
Thank
It is Welsh, so it’s a Welsh word. Dave Snowden is from Wales. He’s not English, he’s Welsh. Not Irish, but Welsh. Don’t make that mistake. Yeah, it’s specific. And the translation I know, which may not be 100 % accurate, is place of my multiple belongings. You’ve got the four domains I mentioned. There’s also one in the middle.
Kate Holterhoff (20:57)
Sore spot.
Chris Corriere (21:15)
that is disorder. And that’s where you go when you fall off that cliff into the worst kind of chaos. You’ve got to swim to the shore of disorder and reorient yourself and figure out what level of complexity are you dealing with? Is there still chaos going on? Is it a checklist survival? You need food, water, shelter, heat? Or are we on to, you know, an extraction plan?
to get out of the wreckage. And this is why I described the work I’m doing through ecology is platform salvage and recovery. It’s like people get to vibe coding and let a bunch of agents loose on their laptop or their GoDaddy account, or maybe their AWS account. And eventually realize they’re in a ditch and need to call a tow truck to come haul them out of that chaos and into disorder and talk about what
obvious next steps can we take. Maybe we need to map some stuff out and come up with a little bit cleaner strategy to get on a clearer trajectory with what we’re doing.
Kate Holterhoff (22:19)
So you’re not only an ecologist, you’re a tow truck driver.
Chris Corriere (22:22)
Yeah, you know, it’s when duty calls, somebody’s gotta do something. Shame it had to be me.
Kate Holterhoff (22:29)
Yeah,
yeah, that’s good. You know, we’re hearing stories already. I think this is a growth industry you’re in right now, chosen can only see an upward trajectory for this, right? so you have mentioned not only Cynefin as I don’t know, I think of it almost as like a visual. You’ve even talked a little bit about the UI component of this.
But you’ve also mentioned Wardley mapping, and I suspect some of our listers are not familiar with Wardley mapping. Can you describe what that means and how you’re using it as a practice through your own consulting?
Chris Corriere (23:00)
Sure. So it really comes down to where you sourcing different components for whatever you’re building. The canonical example for a Wardley map, what we do in sort of Wardley mapping 101 is a cup of tea. And you’ve, know, the asset list, the vertical value chain, which is typically our dependency chain, what is
most people look at, you’ve got it just has visibility on the access. So you’ve got your cup of tea at the top, which is meeting the user need. But you need a cup, you need a teabag, you need water, you need something to heat the water up like a kettle. There needs to be a fuel source for that kettle. What Simon Wardley did is he broke that out on a second access where have Genesis, which is emergent behavior. So if you think of that complicated domain in Cynefin,
things coming from a complex domain and moving into more of an ordered system as practices emerge, they’re going to show up in Genesis on a Wardley map. As they move out of Genesis, you run into custom built where it’s something that exists in the world now, but you’ve got to build it yourself. Once you get out of
Custom built, you end up into a product space where you get a rental function that not only does this thing make it out of Genesis and exist in the world, custom built examples show up and we’re good enough as a society at custom building them that there are products on shelves now and you can even rent those from folks.
Once it evolves even further to the right, you end up with commoditization and you get a utility function there. An indicator that a product or item has entered a commodity space is where it’s available with a flip of the switch or a turn of a dial. So if we do a quick map, hand wavy map,
a Wardley map for compute, you know, a very long time ago, older than me, like predates me, I’ve had professors and other mentors tell me about back in the day, you had to go to Radio Shack and buy parts if you wanted a computer, and you couldn’t buy a monitor off the shelf, you had to get a TV and take it apart and re-solder things to get your computer to have a display on it.
So there was a line there between Genesis and custom-built where computers existed in the world, but if you wanted one yourself, you were really going to have to put it together. Once we moved out of custom-built companies like IBM and Apple and later…
on the diffusion curve. You’ve got like Gateway and Dell that it’s a product off the shelf and Dell got into the enterprise space where you could lease a rack in a colo. You didn’t have to buy your own data center equipment. You could rent it. And finally, when we moved out of that product space into commoditization, that’s really what
cloud compute did that you could get a VPS or an EC2 instance and pay for it by the hour. And then it became even further commoditized with serverless because Lambda’s bill per function call. So we keep pushing it towards commoditization. And as new technology comes on board, you end up with
things sort of looping back around and ending up in Genesis again. So from a platform engineering perspective, I just talked about where you might source different system components, on a Wardley map for classic compute, just standard web compute. if you’re deep in AI and need GPU power or, vector stores or something a bit more specific,
Those are becoming more widely available now, but it’s the practices surrounding on how we use them still are not solidified. So even though you can get GPU compute in certain tiers of service within cloud providers, are they available through serverless functions? Are they going to work on Kubernetes and in containers? Or are you really going to need to run compute on EC2 to know that you’re leveraging the full?
GPU power that you’re expecting. And just this past week, I joined research groups with Simon from time to time to map out different technology. We did one on agriculture a couple of years ago, which was super interesting. We did another one on space technology, which of course is super neat looking at ISL, the mission to Mars. One thing we mapped out that was…
came out of a conclusion of that is that colonizing the moon and having a lunar base was an obvious intermediate step to get to Mars. And it looks like SpaceX is headed that direction now. I don’t know if they figured this out independently or word got back around to them, but it’s kind of cool we ended up at the same conclusion either way. In a relatively short period of time, this past week we spent six hours over three days mapping out the quantum computing space.
So quantum was getting a lot of attention before AI made it out of the lab. But now that AI is starting to stabilize, there’s renewed interest in quantum computing and how that’s gonna impact society and either fix things or cause more problems depending on how it plays out.
Kate Holterhoff (29:02)
Yes and both, right? These are ongoing issues, Chris. I can see that you’ve been busy. These are huge. I love that we have pivoted toward how complexity is appearing in real life because I know that this is something that is going to be a big theme at Devopsdays this year. Could you talk bit about how we’re going to be seeing Cynefin and Wardley mapping and some of these big ideas, coming to the conference.
Chris Corriere (29:31)
Sure. We have Dave Snowden coming as a keynote. Our theme this year is reboot, living and working in real life. And getting back to that, how is this delivering value to real humans versus just, are we spinning up agents screaming at each other in the cloud? Something Dave and I have been discussing over the past year, I was at
an advanced Kenevan workshop in Colorado last year. Dave showed up for a few conversations within the DORA community as well. But how we train up juniors in industry, AI has dropped a rock in that pond. And nevermind mathematics, how much fundamental computer science do beginners need to know now? And Dave’s been big on the role journeymen play that there’s…
room in a, over your course of your career, once you get out of junior and move into sort of mid-level, you really need to drop a ladder and bring the next generation with you. You can’t get to the top of your field otherwise. And AI has sort of alienated that to a certain extent. Are we coding separately or collaborating on a project in pair programming with each other as humans?
not so much since AI came out. Maybe we’re doing that with Claude Code or Codex or another AI tool, but now we’re not even pair programming with the AI. We’re using agentic swarm and completely removing ourselves from the conversation, which not only makes it hard for agents to figure out what they’re supposed to be doing, it is entirely.
alienating the next generation of technologists. And I’m passionate about that problem. I’m doing a lot of work with small businesses and juniors in tech to both make technology accessible. Just as a small business owner, what are you running on and is it efficient? Do you have access to the best and brightest or just a hodgepodge of what’s available based on what you know and what your friends have told you? And
How do we connect that community with juniors that need to build some experience before they can get hired in to larger enterprise careers? And it’s not a perfectly solved problem yet. It’s work in progress, but all the more reason everyone should come to Devopsdays Atlanta and chime in and help us figure out this wicked complex problem.
Kate Holterhoff (32:08)
Yes.
Amazing, I don’t even have to prompt you for a CTA here, this is great. And also you’re getting to that socio-technical thing, right? I mean, talk about hiring, that’s something that we get asked at RedMonk all the time is, what are we doing about the juniors in this AI era? And I don’t know that anyone has a good answer for that right now. everyone agrees it’s bad and that we can’t continue on like this, but I haven’t seen any ways that we can fix this on the trajectory. we’re currently on. So it sounds like we’re going to solve this here at Devopsdays, right?
Chris Corriere (32:42)
Yep, we’ve got, well, we’re going to work on it. I don’t know about solve day one. The day one is more of a meeting of experts with a theme of human centered design in real life. And then day two for Devopsdays Atlanta. We’re moving the daily theme to DevOps SRE and AI practitioners in real life. So there is that split of group of experts on day one for us to sort of take notes and get it.
Kate Holterhoff (32:45)
Let’s solve it!
Mm-hmm.
Huh.
Chris Corriere (33:12)
get exposed to a lot of information at once. And then day two, more collaborative and technologists in the field across DevOps and SRE and how they’re leveraging AI and any warnings they might have. Not everything’s a sales pitch on AI. Some of these are, I won’t say horror stories, but maybe horror stories, depending on your appetite, what you consider terrifying.
Kate Holterhoff (33:42)
I mean, the folks in ops that I know tend to be the most terrified of what they’re seeing. So I could imagine it taking that path. Okay, well, sounds amazing. I will absolutely be there. I feel like we’ve touched on lot of things in your own background, some of the things that keep you up at night, the things that are exciting you right now. And, this has been just such a good conversation. I really appreciate you coming on here, Chris. This has been great. For folks who do want to keep up with, Devopsdays Atlanta, some of your thoughts, you know, you have a blog, and your, social media, where do you direct individuals who want to get in touch with you?
Chris Corriere (34:19)
My, main site is ecology-chris.com that links out to my private blog and ecology computing’s website. And I’m @ecology-chris on most places on the internet. you can find more information about Devopsdays Atlanta at Devopsdays.org/atlanta. And I’ll give a shout out to Torc too. I’m doing a lot of mentoring through the Torc community right now. So, torc.community, they have a very active Discord server that is a lot of fun. There’s a lot of goofing off in there. Sometimes we have serious conversations too. But if you’re a Discord user, you can find me in Torc as @ecology-chris
Kate Holterhoff (35:03)
Fantastic. All right. So let’s go ahead and wrap it up here. I am Kate Holterhoff again, senior analyst at RedMonk. My guest has been Chris Corriere. And if you have enjoyed this conversation, please like, subscribe, and review the MonkCast on your podcast platform of choice. If you’re watching us on RedMonk’s YouTube channel, please like, subscribe, and engage with us in the comments.
