In this RedMonk conversation, Avni Khatri Fein, Senior Director of Education at GitHub, chats with Kelly Fitzpatrick, senior analyst at RedMonk, about GitHub Education’s mission to make coding accessible to everyone. They discuss the importance of bridging the gap between coding education and tech careers, the evolving nature of computer science, and how AI can enhance learning experiences. Avni shares insights from her experiences at hackathons and emphasizes the need to lower barriers to entry in technology.

This RedMonk conversation is sponsored by GitHub.

Transcript

Kelly Fitzpatrick (00:14)
Hello and welcome to this RedMonk Conversation. My name is Kelly Fitzpatrick, senior analyst at RedMonk and with me today is Avni Khatri Fein, senior director of GitHub Education. Avni, thanks so much for joining me on the MonkCast.

Avni Khatri Fein (00:28)
Hey Kelly, it’s so great to be here with you. I’m excited to share what we’re doing at GitHub Education to contribute to our aspiration to reach one billion developers.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (00:36)
One billion developers. That’s a big number. I like that number. And Avni, as someone who has followed GitHub Education for quite some time, I was super excited to actually meet you in person at GitHub universe this past year. I’m delighted to have you on the show. But for folks who are not as familiar with GitHub Education, can you talk a little bit about what it is? How does GitHub Education relate to GitHub? And what does it mean for teachers, students, and the like?

Avni Khatri Fein (00:37)
Yes.

First, I was so excited to meet you too at GitHub Universe, and I was so excited to speak with people who are passionate about.

education and helping students who are outside of GitHub Education and outside of GitHub. thanks for taking the time and inviting me here. GitHub Education is about making it as easy as possible for anyone worldwide who wants to learn to code, to be able to code and providing them the resources to do so. We want to bridge the gap between coding education and what it means to get to a tech career. Our offerings are accessible to everyone globally.

at no cost and we have resources to support teachers, which I’ll talk a little bit about later, and also with students and bringing students to the core GitHub platform. And as you know, generative AI is such a hot topic right now, we consider Copilot to be like a stepping stone to accelerate the learning process and just really believe in helping people change their own lives through technology and with GitHub Education.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (02:01)
And I love that you start off with, okay, GitHub Education, it’s about reaching anyone who wants to do this. Not just people who like, I’m a student going to a school or I’m officially a teacher. So I love that and I feel that your goal of reaching 1 billion developers is attainable in that context.

Avni Khatri Fein (02:17)
I hope so, at least. think it’s still, you’re considering like one billion developers is one eighth of the world’s population. So I do think we have to think beyond the traditional constructs of CS and computer science and potentially even the traditional constructs of educational institutions and saying, what does it take to reach people outside of CS? What does it take to reach people who may not have access to all the resources that we are so privileged to have access to It’s like, what does it mean to make that possible?

Kelly Fitzpatrick (02:44)
Yeah, absolutely. And so going back to your comment about generative AI being a hot topic, know, since ChatGPT dropped in November 2022, which was just in time for finals for many of my friends who are in the education space, there has been so much buzz around generative AI, like everywhere, but especially within the education space, introductions of coding assistants like GitHub Copilot, the OG Copilot has made the conversation around computer science education in particular very interesting with some people even claiming that computer science is dead. What are your thoughts on all this?

Avni Khatri Fein (03:19)
Such a good question, It’s provocative. So I think the…

purpose of learning to program goes beyond creating a program. Coding offers students a platform for fundamental skills such as problem solving, collaborative problem solving specifically, socializing with peers, creative expression, and discovering joy in creating something new. This came out in the TeachAI guidance that was published in partnership with Code.org and other organizations last summer at CSTA. And from industry, we have found that GitHub Copilot supports

automating repetitive tasks, debugging and testing, and allowing developers to focus on the what and what they’re developing. And the creative aspects of programming, I don’t think they go away because the product still has to be built. The product still has to be designed.

And it used to be that, you know, I touched on this like a second ago, but CS used to be a discipline of its own. But now I think of it as a horizontal layer that really can be used across fields, whether it’s a scientist or an artist to enhance and augment what you do. So when you ask me, is CS dead? My response is a resounding absolutely not. It’s expanding and evolving. And I think of it similar to the calculator analogy. That, you know, when calculators first came about,

I think there was a lot of concern about is math needed? Do people still need to know algebra? And I look at it as, yes, you still need to know math. And it’s not thinking about math as a career itself, but how it supports a career. How does CS support a career, regardless of what field you’re in?

Kelly Fitzpatrick (04:45)
And I love the point about computer science having kind of expanded across disciplines and even coding in more general, being this type of skill, like writing or other forms of communication that they can be a field of study in and of itself, but it’s also something that you need to know how to do in order to thrive in all of these different areas. And I think, but I think it’s also important to kind of point out that in addition to say computer science or coding is something that people formally

study and the like, that there are a number of other paths to becoming a developer, whether you’re a professional developer or not. To your mind, how is generative AI impacting these kind of broader career pathways for the next generation of developers and how they kind of onboard into different aspects of their careers?

Avni Khatri Fein (05:31)
I think that’s a really good question and I think a lot of that honestly just I think still has to be figured out but the way I look at it is we’re not just targeting the classroom, right? We’re not just targeting and specifically we’re not just targeting the CS classroom. We’re speaking to a broader audience. We want to understand how to like use AI in any discipline, and I think it’s a partnership with people who are experts

in those disciplines and us, who may be experts in the technology to say, can AI help you succeed and accelerate your work? And I think that it goes to speaking to having an early start. We have GitHub Spark, which helps you go from zero to one very rapidly with natural language. And so looking at avenues to say, hey, you don’t have to understand everything under the hood in order to develop a product.

and working with other disciplines to say, well, what is the right way to actually use AI or technology in your discipline? So I see it as it’s more of an avenue that opens, or it’s a channel that opens up possibilities, right? Not something that makes or reduces possibilities. That’s little bit awkward.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (06:43)
have to say, GitHub Spark is definitely something that caught my eye at Universe. So note to self to put at least a link to to information about that in the show notes. Or maybe we need to have a full podcast episode about that in the future.

Avni Khatri Fein (06:48)
Cool, yes.

Yes.

I’d love to. I’ve done so many like little tests with GitHub Spark just to say, can I do, can I build this app? Can I, can I build this little form and see how long it takes me? And I know I saw that on my, I think on my Bluesky account. I think you, liked one of my posts, but that little upload to USB app that I built for Internet in a Box recently over the winter holiday, I actually tried, I did a prototype of it with GitHub Spark. So I was super excited by that. Okay. Cool.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (07:24)
So we’ll definitely get some links in the show notes to all of this

and then maybe, share your conversations as well. But so back to, think just generative AI more broadly, in a lot of ways generative AI is still in like early stages. We’re kind of, I think just at the tip of the iceberg of what is possible. How, to your mind, how does this affect how we think about AI and education, specifically what should be made available in the classroom versus outside and also perhaps like the different roles that AI may play in say professional and educational use.

Avni Khatri Fein (07:54)
Yeah. And I think for that, I would refer to looking at, so there’s an HBR article that came out a bit ago called a sports analogy for understanding different ways to use AI. And that provides an analogy of how AI can be used, right? Like it can be used as a steroid, a sneaker and a coach. And you can say, Hey, I just want the answer. I’m going to just take the steroid, going to figure it out. And I want the answer. And there may be certain cases where, you know, you’re a professional developer in a professional space, you already have the basic

and you just need to solve the problem and that may be the right way to go. At its best though, I think in the educational space, AI can augment people’s skills over time and make them more productive, And if you use it as a coach, you’re also at the same time learning the fundamental underpinnings of the technology itself. So it’s not just about getting the answer. It’s not just about, you know…

saying I want to be faster, but it’s also about saying, help me learn. And in a way now, it’s so exciting that we have a Copilot chat where you can tailor the learning to the learner itself. You ask the questions that kind of help the learner based on the learner’s context, right? So at Universe, you may have also seen Learning Sandbox, which was prototyped on stage by Amelia. And that was amazing because you could say that, hey, my

learning journey is dependent on where I am today and not on this broad spectrum of, hey, It’s not one size fits all, but it’s like, hey, based on what I know today, these are the questions I have and the system kind of modifies its learning journey for me personally. And that was, to me, that’s one of the most appealing parts of AI and how we can all choose how to learn.

Another thing I heard recently was, and this was from someone I was speaking with externally, just how… AI can actually be a safe space. To learn in a public forum and ask questions is so hard. It can be extremely hard to do that and make yourself vulnerable to not feel stupid in a public forum or a class of 30 or 300. And AI can provide a safe avenue to ask questions and learn at your own pace in a very honest, vulnerable way.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (10:04)
Yeah, I think even beyond classrooms, even just like public forums where developers have traditionally asked questions, I think we’ve seen changes in how that has been used simply because you make yourself vulnerable when you ask a question and you have to worry about how people are going to react to it, whereas, you know, generative AI does not necessarily have that same type of reaction.

Avni Khatri Fein (10:27)
Yes.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (10:27)
And so speaking to the kind of generative AI being able to kind of democratize coding or making things more available to people, what are your thoughts in terms of it making the barrier of entry in some way lower in order for folks to kind of get into these kind of coding centric areas and spaces?

Avni Khatri Fein (10:48)
So as you probably know, I’m very passionate about lowering barriers and access to technology in general. with my prior work at Kids on Computers, now with Internet in a Box, really want to make coding available to all. And I think GitHub Education and GitHub overall

It provides the right resources and tools to do that. Like we ultimately believe like tools like Copilot can lower barriers to entry and help more people join the field of software development or enhance their own fields and other disciplines. We make GitHub Copilot free to students, teachers, and maintainers. And students don’t need a PC to get started on a development environment, which greatly I think also lowers barriers where we see mobile use is more prevalent.

So Copilot on Mobile provides a similar level of access. There was a great initiative from our Corporate, External, and Legal Affairs (CELA) partners, Git Commit Uruguay, where we helped underserved students learn the basics of AI and build AI-powered projects. And that’s like an example of the kind of work we’re doing to ensure AI can be used to lower barriers to entry rather than create new ones.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (11:49)
Yeah, and one thing that I was very excited to learn about you and your role at GitHub Education is that you get to go to a lot of hackathons. I think maybe you were very recently at a hackathon. Do you mind, have you seen since the advent of the age of generative AI, are there any changes in the types of projects or project strategies prevalent in the hackathons that you’ve attended?

Avni Khatri Fein (12:10)
That’s a great question. So I recently did get to go to a major league hackathon event called nwHacks. first of all, I have to say, from the time when I was a student and putting together these types of events to what I observed at the University of British Columbia, it’s…

It was mind blowing, right? There’s like over, I think, close to 700 students there. The event was completely managed by students, like a student committee that was putting together this whole large event. And I was just so impressed with the quality of the work, how…

thoughtful the students were and how knowledgeable they were too about the current technologies. I’ve seen an evolution from like mostly like software projects, basic web applications to there was so much hardware used on the over 180 projects I think it was that were submitted and judged. And it was a lot of generative AI projects as well that were like where people were talking about both like how to use generative AI to

help software, like how to improve software, but then also using generative AI to build a game like that had, it was a squid game, that show I think on Netflix, but it was a squid game where they actually had this little robot that looked like the squid character and was using computer vision models to detect like two players in real life, So it’s just, it’s amazing to me how advanced students are today and how ahead they are from where I was when I was in school like many, years ago.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (13:39)
Yeah, and it does sound like the complexity of the projects, but then also the role that students are playing in actually organizing these events and running these events.

Avni Khatri Fein (13:49)
Both. it’s, and then they were the ones like they had, they were the ones that recruited the sponsor, just the logistics of it, just recruiting the sponsors, making sure, I mean, they had poke bowls, like they had food, like real food. Like when I was participating in hackathons in the late 2000s, I was playing, like, you know, we were eating pizza, right? We were eating pizza every day. But no, they had like real breakfast and lunch and dinner. they also had like workshop sessions. So we actually did a session on GitHub Copilot.

there they had a community of belonging type session where essentially anyone could join and talk about challenges and barriers to entry like what we what we just spoke about so I loved loved all aspects of being there and I loved being a judge too which was very exciting to get to talk with the students directly and understand what they’re thinking I also appreciated like how much how many of their projects were humanitarian focused and how much they want to help the world.

So one of the projects that stood out in my mind was Crisis Lens, where it was mind-blowing because they were like, well, we really wanna allow crowdsourcing of where danger may occur. And it was based on the, like I’m out here in Los Angeles today, but where the California fires were happening at that time. And they were like, well, if people can plot on a map live,

like where there’s a fire happening, maybe that will help like first responders come to the location faster, or maybe they can at least alert their neighbors and let them know. So I was just inspired by the thoughtfulness, like how, you know, college students, like they’re just thinking about others and wanting to give in the world. So that just was so heartwarming and exciting. So Crisis Lens was the group that worked on that. So that was really, really inspiring.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (15:28)
Yeah, and I think, you know, to your point whenever a Hackathon is not just about the technology, like, what group should technology serve in some way? I think for me, that’s always a heartening thing to see.

Avni Khatri Fein (15:41)
Yes, and being able to provide the skills and Copilot being like a stepping stone to help them accomplish what they want faster and make an impact faster, I think, is what we all want. I think making the world better.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (15:55)
So one upcoming event that I am very excited about, I hope you’re excited about as well, is the Association for Computing Machinery’s Special Interest Group on Computer Science Education, or the ACM SIGCSE’s annual technical symposium. GitHub is a platinum sponsor this year. I mean, good job there. CS education needs more sponsors. And you and I are panelists at a session on efficacy of learning with AI.

What are you looking forward to at this event?

Avni Khatri Fein (16:23)
So I joined GitHub almost exactly a year ago last week, right? So I was so excited to, like first of all, so privileged and grateful to be here and given the opportunity to lead the education team. And SIGCSE 2024 was the first conference I attended on behalf of GitHub. And it blew me away because it was like where the teachers are so passionate about helping, they’re like,

like having active debates about how to use AI in the classroom. they’re really pushing us about like, what is the efficacy of AI? Like how does AI in the classroom impact the students. And so I felt like this, and largely the audience is educators, mostly university educators, though some high school educators. And I was so excited to, you know, think about like, well, how…

One, I wanted to make sure that we have a stronger presence this year, which I think we’re making absolutely happen with our full day workshop, the panel, and then also a talk on using GitHub Classroom, in addition to our booth. And I wanted to say, like, look, I understand.

like some of the challenges that educators have where they’re being thrown into situations where they’re saying, hey, AI now exists, you go figure it out, and I’m like, hey, GitHub can help, I wanna help. So I think it’s my job and our job to help make it easier for teachers to teach AI in the classroom in a way that…

is aligned with their ethos, and in a way that they feel is the right way to do so and introduce both like what is AI and then how to use AI. So I’m hoping our panel will talk not only about the impact of teaching and learning in the computer science classroom, and how students and educators interact with technology, but also like sharing insights about the use of tools and integrating AI tools into courses and exploring the benefits and challenges. And I’m so

excited that you agreed to be on the panel because I think your perspective with speaking with so many educators is very helpful and I think you serve as a nice bridge between industry and academia to do so.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (18:21)
Yeah, it is my

pleasure to be there. It’s like the opportunity to go and just spend a couple days out of like my life just hanging out with educators and speaking to them and seeing, you know, exactly what they’re doing. For me, that is that it’s just that’s a privilege.

So we are about out of time, but before we go, how can folks hear more from you? What are your preferred social channels? I know you mentioned Bluesky, and are you planning to speak at any events in 2025 in addition to SIGCSE?

Avni Khatri Fein (18:52)
okay. So, preferred social channels, definitely Bluesky. You can find GitHub Education there. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram, where we’re posting there, and also LinkedIn, of course. So, any of those, totally fine. Am I planning to speak in 2025?

Great question. I’m hoping to go to ITiCSE this year as well, which is in the summer. And I will likely also be somehow attending Wikimania 2025, either virtually or in person in Kenya. So looking at that, I’m not sure I’m speaking there yet. And then of course, heavily involved in GitHub Universe again.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (19:25)
And where is ITiCSE this year? was in Milan last year. That was a lot of fun.

Avni Khatri Fein (19:29)
Give me a second. The Netherlands. Yes.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (19:32)
Netherlands.

I think, yeah, that’s a that’s a good good one to aim for if anyone is looking for a reason to go go to Europe this summer.

Avni Khatri Fein (19:40)
Agree.

Kelly Fitzpatrick (19:40)
Cool. Well, Avni, many thanks to you again for taking the time to speak with me. Again, my name is Kelly Fitzpatrick with RedMonk. If you enjoyed this conversation, please like, subscribe, and review the MonkCast on your podcast platform of choice. If you are listening to us on RedMonk’s YouTube channel, please like, subscribe, and engage with us in the comments.

Avni Khatri Fein (19:57)
Thank you, Kelly. So good to speak with you.

A RedMonk Conversation: How GitHub Education Aspires to Reach 1 Billion Developers (with Avni Khatri Fein)

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