{"id":4454,"date":"2010-04-16T11:53:04","date_gmt":"2010-04-16T16:53:04","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.redmonk.com\/cote\/2010\/04\/16\/itmanagement070\/"},"modified":"2010-04-16T11:53:04","modified_gmt":"2010-04-16T16:53:04","slug":"itmanagement070","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/2010\/04\/16\/itmanagement070\/","title":{"rendered":"Ironing out the cloud &#8211; IT Management &amp; Cloud Podcast #70"},"content":{"rendered":"<p class=\"pic\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.flickr.com\/photos\/cote\/4523836811\/\" title=\"Rainy Day by cote, on Flickr\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/farm3.static.flickr.com\/2732\/4523836811_a944b1ff89.jpg\" width=\"500\" height=\"500\" alt=\"Rainy Day\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>This week <a href=\"http:\/\/www.johnmwillis.com\">John<\/a> and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.peopleoverprocess.com\/\">I<\/a> go over a raft-full of mostly cloud related news, not too much good old fashioned IT Management.<\/p>\n<p>Download the episode directly <a href=\"http:\/\/media.libsyn.com\/media\/redmonk\/itmanagement070.mp3\">right here<\/a>, subscribe to <a href=\"http:\/\/feeds.feedburner.com\/ITManagementGuys\">the feed<\/a> in iTunes or other podcatcher to have episodes downloaded automatically, or just click play below to listen to it right here:<\/p>\n<p class=\"embed\">\n<h2>Show Notes<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>In all of our talk of conferences, we forgot to mention that <a href=\"http:\/\/www.mms-2010.com\/public\/home.aspx\">MMS 2010 is next week<\/a>! Hopefully there&#8217;ll be some fun Microsoft IT Management news.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/blog.springsource.com\/2010\/04\/13\/springsource-acquires-rabbitmq\/\">RabbitMQ bought by SpringSource\/VMWare<\/a> &#8211; the re-rise of queues. See <a href=\"http:\/\/www.redmonk.com\/jgovernor\/2010\/04\/16\/springsource-buys-rabbit-for-world-made-of-messages\/\">James&#8217; piece on the topic<\/a> too.<\/li>\n<li>Hotel philly cheese steaks and fake Ruebens.<\/li>\n<li>Amazon has a lot of middleware.<\/li>\n<li>Cot&eacute; really liked <a href=\"http:\/\/phillyemergingtech.com\/sessions\/enterprise-cloud-computing-pitfalls-puzzles-and-great-rewards\">one of cloud presentations<\/a> at #phillyete last week. Also, he gave <a href=\"http:\/\/www.redmonk.com\/cote\/2010\/04\/12\/pragmaticcloud\/\">a keynote on  on developers getting cloud computing<\/a> there.<\/li>\n<li>Some Think Dynamics and Tivoli memory-lane.<\/li>\n<li>People still building old-school, multi-tiered apps seems crazy to John. The &#8220;HMS Multi-tier&#8221;.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.cloudcamp.org\/toronto\">CloudCampToronto<\/a> &#8211; John does <a href=\"http:\/\/www.slideshare.net\/CloudCamp\/opscode-lightning-talk-by-john-willis-at-cloud-camp-toronto-3\">his first lightening talk<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>We talk about cloud and other conference ROI for vendors, like John at OpsCode.<\/li>\n<li>RightScale and the new type of tech CEO, accessible and brand-building.<\/li>\n<li>John sees <a href=\"http:\/\/www.enomaly.com\/\">Enomaly<\/a> demos while in Toronto.<\/li>\n<li>John&#8217;s 2010 Cloudie Awards plans &#8211; see <a href=\"http:\/\/www.johnmwillis.com\/other\/the-2009-cloudies-awards\/\">his 2009 ones<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/blogs.gartner.com\/cameron_haight\/2010\/04\/07\/the-need-for-it-io-reform\/\">Gartner&#8217;s Cameron Haight goes dev\/ops<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>iPad? <a href=\"http:\/\/www.redmonk.com\/cote\/2010\/04\/07\/ipad\/\">Cot&eacute;&#8217;s review<\/a>. <a href=\"http:\/\/www.readwriteweb.com\/cloud\/2010\/04\/does-amazons-rivalry-with-appl.php\">Rackspace got something on it<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.groundworkopensource.com\/about\/news\/pr\/coverage-for-private-clouds.html\">GWOS and Eucalyptus partner for cloud management<\/a> &#8211; they&#8217;re looking for beta testers.<\/li>\n<li>Cot&eacute; will be on <a href=\"http:\/\/www.zenoss.com\/about\/news\/events\/?eventID=89244612\">a Zenoss sponsored virtual panel next week talking about managing the cloud<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>John has a lot of speaking stuff: OSCON, Dublin conference Epicenter<\/li>\n<li>We cap off the episode with airline status chit-chat and the sweet life of being Executive Platinum. Our man <a href=\"http:\/\/www.adventuresinoss.com\/\">Tarus<\/a> is <a href=\"http:\/\/www.adventuresinoss.com\/?p=1030\">a recent lifetime gold member on American<\/a>, which Cot&eacute; longs for &#8211; only 206,442 more miles to go!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Also, if you haven&#8217;t subscribed to it already, you should check out <a href=\"http:\/\/www.servicesphere.com\/blog\/category\/podcast\">the ITSM Weekly The Podcast<\/a> &#8211; it&#8217;s chock full of good old fashioned IT Management, which I personally adore.<\/p>\n<h2>Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><i>(As always, I don\u2019t fully check out and correct transcript for this show, so if we\u2019re saying something nutty below, be sure to check the audio before you think we\u2019ve gone off our meds.)<\/i><\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Well, hello everybody; it\u2019s the 15th of April, 2010. I think it\u2019s like tax time or something who knows. Anyway this is the IT Management and Cloud Podcast, Episode Number 70. We\u2019ve just five episodes away from three quarters as it where, which is pretty existing. As always, this is one of your co-hosts Michael Cot\u00e9, available at peopleoverprocess.com. And I\u2019m joined by the ever present also co-host.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Hi! I am John Willis from antidistablishmentareaism.com or sometimes honorbikkerbilllatudiakabus.com.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Well, those sound like domain names that would be available.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> They might be, but I guarantee your &#8212; the guy who has got to do the transcribing for this is going to be awful, it\u2019s going to be driving him nuts.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Have you been enjoying the transcriptions\u2019 John?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah a couple of them. Some of them are like, you know, what was the one, the one I read was, when we did the one in Austin right. So I started off as Michael, John, Michael, John Person 1, Person &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> It was Speaker 3 and Speaker 2.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well, I somewhere about eight minutes in to it I devolved into Speaker 2 or 3.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, we have actually a really good transcription service for you, they\u2019re like Indian offshore I think nowadays. We do a lot of sponsored podcasts and stuff, so we do transcriptions for that. I do transcriptions for this show and other shows and unlike the ones where we are sponsored, we actually look over and correct everything right, with these ones like I just pretty much wrap some HTML around it and throw it up there. So, they get to be a little wacky after a while, but I think it\u2019s &#8212; there\u2019s been several people who have liked the transcriptions.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Now it\u2019s a good thing to do, it\u2019s totally cool.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, it\u2019s pretty good stuff. So, I was talking before the podcast, before we get in to the IT Management and Cloud stuff how, I had an excellent Reuben sandwich this morning and it was made with turkey pastrami. As John has &#8212; it\u2019s merely a shadow of an idea. It\u2019s sort of like the Plato\u2019s cave thing where there\u2019s three levels.<\/p>\n<p>So, you\u2019re trapped in a cave and someone has strapped you into &#8212; they didn\u2019t have chairs back in the ancient Greek times or whatever, and someone has strapped you to the wall and what you are seeing is someone is doing a shadow play where they\u2019ve got actual forms and they\u2019re casting fires to make shadows on the wall. Most people, John, this is how they\u2019ve lived their life; they\u2019re seeing shadows of the truth.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> At some point, you can turn your head and you realize that shadows are being made and some other people live that way. But eventually you get loosened of your bonds and you go outside of the cave and there is this pond of, they didn\u2019t use the word enlightenment that\u2019s more of an Easter thing, but there is sort of this pond of true knowledge and you start to see the true forms and shapes, the logos. And you know this Ruben is kind of like shadows playing on the wall.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Right, the true form has corn, beef, sauerkraut you know it\u2019s stacked so high. So, but you know what, I was looking up on this, you know, we were talking about where did this come from. So this is the history part of the IT Management Podcast. It was actually the, the person who basically was the founder or who made the first Rueben is Reuben Kulakofsky. He was Lithuanian-born grocer from Omaha, Nebraska, wait a minute, that\u2019s, well I weren\u2019t expecting to see that next. Well anyway there you go.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s right, so, you know what\u2019s been going on John? I think it\u2019s been about a week-and-a-half or something like that since we\u2019ve recorded. I was at a conference last week, so I didn\u2019t get a chance to record then. So what\u2019s been up?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So I have done a little traveling and so I am kind of looking at, where do you want start, do you want start with cloud, you want to start with big news?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Let\u2019s, what\u2019s the big news?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> RabbitMQ.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh! That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Purchased by the SpringSource guys.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, the VMware SpringSource people got. So what you know I use the, I\u2019m the first to go with, with my take on something, what, what are you hearing in field and out there what\u2019s going on?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know to I talked to Alexis Richardson, you know I used to do a bunch of podcast in my Cloud Caf\u00e9 with him when, he was at CohesiveFT and so he had given me a call, you know kind of let me know, this was up, you know. It\u2019s kind of funny, he gave me the, you know hey, email big news and I\u2019m like, you know, big news for him. So, but not for me. But yeah you know I mean, he was, you know I mean it means that RabbitMQ and the use of kind of Erlang based and RabbitMQ is alive and well.<\/p>\n<p>A company like VMware sees this as a possible glue; I think it\u2019s extremely exciting. You know I think those technologies are awesome right, they are turning out. You know and I think when a company like VMware invests in buying that technology &#8212; that it\u2019s &#8212; I mean I knew it was real deal. But it\u2019s, it\u2019s in the lot, a lot of people know it\u2019s real deal, but I think that commercial world might not have known it\u2019s a good deal.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> And it\u2019s, they are an AMPQ system, right?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Which is, which is basically a, I mean it\u2019s a, I\u2019m, sort of at lack for words because it\u2019s kind of such an old concept that keeps getting kind of respond, but it\u2019s basically a queuing system. So an event system and most recently we would call these Enterprise Service Buses or ESBs.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> But basically it\u2019s just you have, you have an architecture of your software where you want to send events from Point A to Point B and Point C and all these different points and there is different ways you might be doing it. But you want a varying degree of guaranteed delivery or un-guaranteeing, you got all these levers that\u2019s like the robustness of it, the guarantee that you will get it and then versus the performance required and the programming models, all these different things. But, but there is kind of this new generation of AMPQ based ones. RabbitMQ being one of the more popular ones that are just basically a queue that you can have and like I was at the emerging, I mean that\u2019s a pretty fair [?] summary of what you said, I mean &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, yeah it\u2019s excellent, yeah, it\u2019s good. It\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting that you bring that up because you know the conference I was at was the Emerging Technologies for the Enterprise conference put on by Chariot Solutions. It\u2019s basically a Java and kind of enterprise consultancy shop, which, which I didn\u2019t know them extremely well before I got involved in doing these conference with them. But they have a, they have a pretty good podcast that goes over this interesting technical stuff and they seem like a good bunch of people and they are based in the Philadelphia area. So I went to Philadelphia and I only had a hotel cheese steak. I very much so failed in the area of cuisine, I am getting a real cheese steak, apparently you\u2019re supposed to [?].<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> A hotel, oh man.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah it was tough times.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Turkey Reubens and hotel.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> But, this is, this is the thing about &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Philly cheese steaks.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I finally &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> This will not stand, this will not stand.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, I finally got in all of my friends here in Austin understand, they used to all be envious that I travel a lot and they are like, so nowadays they joke with me, because I have joked with them but they are like, \u201cOh so you are going to Philadelphia, well enjoy the hotel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, now they know it, that\u2019s funny.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s right, you know, like they realize it that when you travel a lot you basically sight-see a bunch of hotels that\u2019s where it went bad.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Any ways getting back to topic, so there were actually quite a few interesting talks of people in the financial industry and other people who were using AMPQ based things, whether they are using Rabbit or other stuff. And you know it\u2019s interesting that Q as in queuing especially in sort of a cloud architecture, distributed architecture kind of coming back because that\u2019s, those are really the type of architectures when you have a grid or a cloud or a distributed or a sloppy or a whatever, where queuing kind of starts to become interesting.<\/p>\n<p>I sat in on a Jeff Barr presentation. I don\u2019t, I actually don\u2019t think I have ever seen one of his talks and it was really, a really good, it did exactly what I wanted. I wanted to be like the lazy analyst and I figured I am going to see Jeff Barr Amazon, Evangelist and I basically going to get an overview of everything that Amazon web services has to offer and sure enough that\u2019s exactly what I got.<\/p>\n<p>So it\u2019s like, that guy gives a great, if you want to know everything that Amazon does in web services, he is pretty good at it. And I didn\u2019t realize that they, you know, we probably even talked about it, but I haven\u2019t gotten into the detail that he even got into about that. They have a queuing service as well, we did talk about this.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh yeah, yeah, that\u2019s [?].<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> But it\u2019s kind of interesting when you take an hour and sit down like and you know Jeff Barr walks you through everything, like you realize at this point, they pretty much have every piece of middleware you would need to build an application. I mean there is various thing, they don\u2019t have a UI later, they lack that, but they have like they have got a database, they have got everything, which is, and it got me wondering like, I wonder if, I wonder how many people if any like, like what, if they are like 80% of our staff are Amazon Web Services, like, who is treating AWS kind of like the way you would treat, you know WebSphere like your complete sort of application stack or something like that.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah I know, I mean you know this is, I just, I was actually at CloudCamp in Toronto last week and this debate came up and I think somebody was arguing that infrastructure is a service and this and that and that you really need a pass, and in some ways you could argue that infrastructure is a service.<\/p>\n<p>The Amazon Web Services is becoming past like but the truth of the matter is, I\u2019m going to sneeze excuse me, so the truth of the matter is that Amazon as it stands right now is really a full service infrastructure as a service, offering and because the argument was well we still &#8212; you really couldn\u2019t still build an app without a [?]. The truth of the matter is that with a little bit of help or a little bit of understanding you can walk in from ground zero go to Amazon you can get your the elastic load balancing saying which gives your basic &#8212; your stack for doing basically a LAMP stack or you know or some type of stack.<\/p>\n<p>You got the relational database service right there, virtual data storage or whatever it is which is basically MySQL as of service, at SQS for any queuing technologies. I mean you literally and in fact you know Segway, they just announced a couple of new features within the last week or so. They\u2019ve got sticky sessions for ELB, which was, you know, the ELB, elastic load balancing.<\/p>\n<p>So, now you got sticky sessions. And then they also added simple notification services, which is more like TIMCO like offering, you know it\u2019s kind of a message broadcasting.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Alright.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So I mean, it shouldn\u2019t rise, you are actually right, I mean you could, armed with like a couple of cheat sheets you could build an application infrastructure, prior to it, you have to developer on your right side, you could tell the developer, say here I have got some codes and you could arguably build a pretty non-complex application infrastructure and I think you could probably do it a day if you had the right cheat sheets.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Maybe at worst case a couple of days, but think about three years ago what it would have taken to build an elastic load balanced stack that has queuing built in, and master slit, well I guess they don\u2019t have the master slit database stuff, but as the relational database back-end set up. I mean, that\u2019s months. Maybe it\u2019s a high paid and it\u2019s actually usually not one sys admin., it\u2019s a kind of a sys admin for this, a sys admin for that.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes I guess in the web world, it is one guy, but I mean they have reduced the ability to get &#8211; people talk about how the cloud has reduced the ability to kind of get resources really fast, but and when you start talking about what they have done with all the different resources, I mean you basically, I mean that\u2019s all right, let\u2019s all make a plug with something like a chef or puppet. I mean you abstract those things and literally you can build infrastructure in minutes.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah it makes me think, we should gather up some sponsors to have some sort of contest, that\u2019s like and we come up with some sort of enterprise grade application and we say like we are going to give you like 24 or 48 hours and the person who writes the most code on their own, the least amount of code on their own, right and runs everything in the cloud is sort of the winner, right.<\/p>\n<p>And that the point is like now you got all this &#8212; we usually talk about the infrastructure operations angle of cloud computing, which is all fantastic, no problem with that. But it\u2019d be interesting to kind of see for an application developer like taking this aspect of all the middleware that\u2019s out there, like how far you could actually go with implementing something right.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, now, well you know they used have this conference call, The Enterprise Summit, it was over 10 years ago and it was really kind of just, it kind of died in the Internet probably I don\u2019t know why, maybe that something to do with people and the word enterprise was not sexy back then, but that\u2019s exactly what they do, it would be enterprise conference where they would talk about the latest, greatest stuff going on in distributed computing mostly around the enterprise, a lot of sessions on DNTF and systems management.<\/p>\n<p>Then one of the days they would have this kind of all-day bake off and in the morning they would give, if any vendor could come and play they would kind of unseal the task and it would be okay to create a system that does this, this and this, it has a help desk, it has this and this and &#8211;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh! Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> And at the end of the day they would have a panel of judges that would go and they\u2019d pick a winner and IBM had them won a couple of years a row and then back it would be HP, IBM, CN, they would be and it would be awesome because I mean if they did like, you can, they\u2019d rope off their areas, but you can watch, and then at the end they do all like, show what they have done and it\u2019d be real stuff. I mean &#8211;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah it\u2019d be sort of like the Iron Chef of cloud development, right. I don\u2019t know, I mean so, if there is, I mean if there is anyone out there who wants to help kick in like probably just be like a few thousand dollars, most of it for prize money right, and then we could just come up with I think we would need like one type of application or something like that, right and we would just kind of specify that and it would just of normal traditional boring sort of application. And the point would be like the people who figure out, I mean you obviously it has to be a working running version of whatever this application is, but the people who figure out how to use the most cloud stuff.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Because the whole point is to figure out how much, never mind the operation stuff, but to figure out how much you can rely on the cloud for your application development, not just deploying stuff, but that would be &#8211;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah that would be very cool, you know if I could see, you know actually if we did a little leg work on it, we could probably get some big sponsorship money and have a really cool contest.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> But, yeah, yeah, so that\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I got some clients in my couch I can put towards it.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go. I have got, I have some Bulgarian pennies and dollars that we can have.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I got some Italian bucks left over too.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh! Man there you go so.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> So you know also since we are on the topic of the Philly ETE the Emerging Tech and the Enterprise I am going to try to make it to that conference again next year, because it was really a good conference I liked it a lot and it was, it was very, it was a user conference, alright.<\/p>\n<p>So it\u2019s all practitioners and people who do things and most conferences have a bunch of users at them, but it also wasn\u2019t centered around one particular community or brand or vendor. It was a whole lot of, it was a whole lot of clojure talk or clojure which you know it\u2019s just a, any ways it not really a development podcast, but it\u2019s just a, an exciting way of doing functional programming which the kids love and at least the Java kids love it and probably some other ones.<\/p>\n<p>But there was also a lot of interest in cloud talk and there was one talk that I want to call in particular that I really liked about these guys, I am probably going to say their names wrong, but this guys Chris Cera and David Brussin and they work at Vuzit and Monetate, I don\u2019t know how to say this, but I\u2019ll put a link to it and I kind of walked in about 10 minutes into their talk.<\/p>\n<p>It was a very bare bones, it is kind of like, what do they call, enterprise cloud computing pitfalls, puzzles and great rewards. And it was one of these great things, like hey we have been using this whacky cloud stuff for a year now and here is like all the weird stuff that happened and like things that were interesting and it was a very sort of maximum aphoristic kind of thing. Well each slide things like, expect failure all the time or we never reboot systems anymore and things like that and hopefully there will be a recording of that. I don\u2019t know if there was recording of it, but I am going try to get them on this podcast.<\/p>\n<p>So just kind of reprise presentation and talk about it more, because it was a, you can kind of check out the slides. But it was really good and a lot of what they called about centered around, you know a lot of it was the pitfalls right, like, it was basically the situation within a new technology like if something is going to go wrong, if something can go wrong, it\u2019s going to go wrong not only the way you think it will but in weird unexpected ways.<\/p>\n<p>Like their big example of that was like you got all these APIs that used be cloud stuff and that stuff is just not going to work a lot. Like sometimes it\u2019s just APIs aren\u2019t going to work and then you are kind of like, what do I do now, right and so you know there is things like that to worry about. And the other thing which you know will be kind of more near and dear to yourself John and your employer and other people listening to this podcast is that actually they did say a lot of interesting stuff about how it changes the dynamic or release management and configuration management they do, right.<\/p>\n<p>So they don\u2019t do a lot of, like I said they don\u2019t really reboot systems to fix them. They just kind of re-provision them or something like that. I didn\u2019t quite understand the distinction then, I was one of the part, maybe that was before I was listening really closely and then also there is more of continuos deployment that they\u2019re kind of doing and there is more. They don\u2019t really do database migrations so much. I mean there was, it was interesting to think about the way deploying to the cloud and the different automation, and of course they are sort of like you have to automate everything or you are going to die was a big point they were making.<\/p>\n<p>And the consequence of that was that a lot of the, the sort of upgrading and migration and kind of flexing with things didn\u2019t really exist for them, because once you kind of, and I am kind of reading between the lines when we talk to them, I ought to get some more, but it seemed like, once you separate the data out from your application a lot more and if the application goes wrong, you basically just blow it away and rebuild it at some point.<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s not a lot of troubleshooting that you can do in which and I have made a call back to this OPsCamp Austin a little. There was this kind of little just side conversation that Mark Cathcart who is at Dell was having with some people and he was kind of trying to get to this point where a lot of people who are doing cloud computing, they don\u2019t really care about detailed root cause analysis anymore, right. They are more interested in raising the scope of the node where something is going wrong and just destroying that node and getting a new node to be really abstract in the talk, but anyways.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, well I mean I think the kind of Holy Grail just leads back to what you are talking earlier about queuing systems. I think that people, when you get into the cloud you have an opportunity to kind of completely refactor and do it completely different, because the your traditional tiered stack or even more specific the idea of a server being of importance in an architecture, you can destroy that concept.<\/p>\n<p>I need the idea of like what appears to all, I kind of laugh at bMotion. bMotion in some ways to me is like, it\u2019s this old cloudy way, this way to keep a hold on the old school because bMotion is something that should be useless, right?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I mean, you know, it\u2019s designed a kind of a message plus architecture where, you know, work is queued, you know, helpers, you know, start more helpers, or pull things off the Q to do the work, servers die, they just, you know, the Q doesn\u2019t get the, you know, for whatever, the request doesn\u2019t get completely processed. It\u2019s still about [?] in the Q another one process, you know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah. I mean what you are getting at it is you have to think most of your application has to be stateless, which is &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Right and probably decouple from anything, yeah and so that\u2019s the huge opportunity that when you go into the cloud and you start thinking about, okay I have an opportunity to write an application from scratch.<\/p>\n<p>I have this opportunity now to building in a way that, then you start agreeing with I mean cloud in one sense is also, you know, like I mean the whole Amazon Web Services or what Mark Cathcart says is absolutely true, like when you are starting in the cloud I don\u2019t care anything below the OS.<\/p>\n<p>The truth of the matter is if you are doing it right, you don\u2019t even care about the OS anymore right, because that\u2019s just a, just an operating system that will just either be, you know, provisioned you know, the kind of throw it out the window test or the, or it\u2019s going to be just, you know, something in a large architectural Q manage system that\u2019s just completely [?].<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, yeah that\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So, yeah, so I think all of that, the problem is we have, you know, it\u2019s funny I was at, I was at IBM. So I was going to give a shout at, actually I might get them in trouble, but so maybe I should tie these two together. I was going to give a shout out a guy Andrew Trossman I met him at IBM. I met him at IBM Pulse last year and then I met him again this year and then I met him at CloudCamp, Toronto and the guy is brilliant, he is the guy; he was one of the original founders of Think Dynamics. And so and he has worked for IBM ever since- &#8211;<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: That was the &#8212; like SaaS hosted stuff right?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, what it was, it was actually the, when IBM, Think Dynamics did provisioning and orchestration. And so they, they IBM bought that technology and kind of tried to replace the existing Tivoli configuration management stuff with it. They really have, they haven\u2019t succeeded completely in some areas.<\/p>\n<p>So I have had a lot of talks since we have, you know, a common history as I know both worlds very well Think Dynamics and the Tivoli world and he is in this kind of think tank cloud team he is brilliant guy. So I was wondering, I was like, you know, why does IBM do this, or how come they don\u2019t do this, or why do they do that, you know.<\/p>\n<p>Since, I go around and I preach the technologies in the way things should be done, so this is the part right where I might get them into trouble, but I don\u2019t think so. So I\u2019m in a session at Pulse later, and they\u2019re showing this new configuration management product that they made in IBM primarily for desktop configuration management, not virtualization old school configuration management, but built on a new architecture and fully scalable up to the, you know, the million of devices.<\/p>\n<p>So I asked, \u201cYou guys going through the architecture and it\u2019s a traditional tiered stack,\u201d and I\u2019m thinking to myself why would anybody starting from scratch today, who has any knowledge of what\u2019s going on built a tiered infrastructure? I mean if you think about all the problems we\u2019ve had with monitoring software with the tiered structure, right, it always is that the two structures, you know, connect some server, then you have kind of mid tier servers, then you have some level of clients or agents, right. And then, and the problem that you always have with those structures is, I mean they work okay pre-cloud because you didn\u2019t have an unlimited or API literally to just add resources.<\/p>\n<p>So you are always going through this growth pain of adding more, you know, horizontal middle tier servers. And at some point then it got two big even for the clusters, so you had to build a second, you know, server, you know hub spoke infrastructure. And, then we look at what\u2019s going on cloud, it\u2019s like you\u2019ll be out of mind knowing that you could, that horizontal tier could be completely a [?].<\/p>\n<p>So why I even bother writing an architecture like that where we know that resources or certain resources are so available whether they\u2019re private clouds, or virtualization, or a cloud, you know, knowing what we know about all the mistakes of a tiered structure. Sure enough I asked the guy that in the session, I was like \u201cYou are IBM, I mean you guys are the one that kind of coined SOA, I mean well, you know, is it SOA the core of a non tiered structure?\u201d And he just \u201cWell, yeah you are right, you know, so [?] about it. He is like, \u201cMan I wish I was a fly on a wall, [?] because I tell you guys over and over.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like &#8212; I mean it\u2019s just &#8212; I think that anybody who is stacking in the tier structure got to go, they are like that legacy [?] I was talking about, you know, you better think about refactoring your architecture because, you know, that old school architecture, and here is the point along with it, back to the point and that is even, you know, great developers which IBM has are still have this ingrained idea of how to do development and they wind up making that same mistake over and over because that\u2019s what they do and do.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not just IBM, it\u2019s other people who are developing new products too that, they just need to, you know, kind of break the mold, step out of the box whatever you want to call it. And say okay there is, there is the potential of a new way to make so much more sense in a world that\u2019s elastic, you know.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: You want to get off the HMS multitier.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, no good.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I love it the HMS multitier I got [?]. I love the old people\u2019s quotes and tweeting this is my, this is what I do these days.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: There you go, there you go.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So the CloudCamp was fun.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, yeah, that was in, where was it you said it was?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Toronto, Toronto.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Toronto how is that?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Great, that was cool, so I had some fun so &#8212;<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: That that\u2019s like the only part of North America where they know how to pronounce my name right in Quebec or Quebec or Quebec or whatever they say up there in the land of poutine.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Right, but actually Toronto, Montreal is a little better I think.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Well yeah, but I, you known embarrassing point here I always get my Canadian geography run wrong, I pretty much all I know is Vancouver is on the west side.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> [?] I think that\u2019s where, yeah there you go; you know that because of the Olympics or no?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: It\u2019s just because I know plenty, because I\u2019ve made the mistake many times, so I\u2019ve learnt the hard way.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go, well I think there is a, I don\u2019t know for sure, but I know there was, a while back there is the whole Toronto, Quebec Montreal thing going where Toronto was more kind of, you know, British English type and they were real upset about being forced to actually have French and English on all the signs and all that stuff. So, [?] but anyway what I was going to say is, so I did my first lightening talk for OpsCamp, so I did that.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Oh! Yeah how did that go?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> It went really well and I was going to say is that, you know, the Canadians are I think the nicest people on a planet and if you are going do your first presentation somewhere, you want to do it in Canada because they just, they just really nice people. So even if you do screw up, you know, they kind of, I don\u2019t think I screwed up, but you know, they just people are just so nice there, but it went really well I mean it was my operations as code kind of being theme that, you know, trying to &#8212;<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: So, you now, both of us are pretty biased about CloudCamp having, I mean you\u2019ve done, I\u2019ve only helped to organize one and you have helped to organize many and whatever, but now that you are kind of more so on the winder side of things if you will, right. So what, I mean do you, do you feel like CloudCamp is worth the investment of a lightening talk or just showing up as far as the business side of stuff or like what, how does it play into like the business needs that you have, beyond your own, you know, your own like personal like of CloudCamp stuff?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know you are troublemaker Cote, is it Cote or Cote? So all right, you know, so like I\u2019m always honest, so yeah, it\u2019s a tough call. I mean there\u2019s some companies just do it over and over and at one point the course of getting your face in front of customers, I mean a lightening talk can get $1,000. I mean, you know, prepared to pay in 5 grand and getting a booth at some large conference if you look at it that way &#8212;<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I saw a, to be a platinum sponsor of some virtual conference I saw the other day a virtual conference.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Virtual conference.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: It was like $30000 and I mean it\u2019s just like, I mean they had some like guaranteed amount of leads and things like that, so always just kind of crazy.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I don\u2019t know, I think that the old school, I talked to a couple of people, you know, so when I took this job I went on, try to talk to, many people would have, would let me ask them questions about and [?] going to be responsible for spending budgets on these kind of, what is your, you know, what is, and you know, and nice thing about most people it\u2019s just awesome, even Tara Spalding of GroundWork [?] you should have spit in my face, she gave me great advice and, you know, this Mark Hinkle gives tons of great advices just a lot of cool people.<\/p>\n<p>I think there is this kind of ground root, you know, this get back to the roots of, you know, not going to the big conference spending tons of money where you could get into like the bar camps and I think that, so on the positive side of, you know, my response to your question is that I think CloudCamp is a really good way to get in front of people and, you know, the thing is you get on the expert panel, you\u2019re going to be in the open session.<\/p>\n<p>So you really do get a lot of mileage out of your, out of your topic. So get your topic over there, people get to hear it. If there\u2019s not enough people that raise their hand for experts, you know, I\u2019ll raise my hand and say, okay I\u2019ll jump up there. And then you\u2019ve got open sessions and then you like what I\u2019ll do is I\u2019ll post an open session on a generic topic like dev\/ops or, you know, operations, infrastructure, cloud and configuration management. Then you get a smaller group and they are the people that are real interested.<\/p>\n<p>So for, you know, if you are like the Dine, I was going to a shout-out for the Dine guys, the Dine Inc. you know, they\u2019ve got the Dine DNS stuff. They\u2019re always doing these Dine [?], they\u2019re at every CloudCamp, they\u2019re great guys right.<\/p>\n<p>So they\u2019re just saying, they do every CloudCamp and, you know, and they will get on to the panel, they will talked about, you know, they\u2019ve got, they do hosted DNS, they sell the story of kind of Global DNS Load Balancing it\u2019s a great story. And then, you know, then they\u2019ve got breakout session and the people who are interested in that, so I think that, you know, for $1,000 you can\u2019t beat that.<\/p>\n<p>Now on the downside of the CloudCamp is, the problem you have is, you know, you can go to a CloudCamp spend a $1,000 and if you look at like the registration [?] like which one you should go to but you might get like, you know, it might be a 120 people there and it might be a 100 people that are brand new, newbie cloud guys and all they\u2019re coming there for is to learn what is a cloud. And, you know, and so that\u2019s, you know, think that\u2019s where it gets little dangerous as a vendor sponsoring this, I have had that happen at least once.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, so what would you think if they like, if they like videotape your lightening talk and put that up on the website?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh, I\u2019d I love it, yeah I think, you know, I think I\u2019m actually doing it again in New York. I\u2019m going to a Cloud Expo next week. That\u2019s a 2 week road trip, it\u2019s kind of cool. I\u2019m at Cloud Expo next week, next week the New York there\u2019s a CloudCamp one of those days and then RightScale is having user group thing, so I\u2019m going to go to that, so that\u2019s going to be lot of fun.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah that does sound enjoyable.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> And then I\u2019m going to hook up with Mark Hinkle and we\u2019re going to go up to this Northwest Linux user conference thing.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh, yeah, yeah now that they &#8212; the Mark Hinkle and Matt Ray it\u2019s enough, so I always tell &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yes, I\u2019ll be out with those guys and then we\u2019re doing our first public training class that following week, so I\u2019m just going to get on road Sunday and then \u2013<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Everyone gets a spatula.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, yes right. But yes so yes so I\u2019m going to do, I definitely want to, I\u2019m going to probably videotape mine this time myself if somebody up there could be useful. It\u2019s a lot of fun, you know.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, you know, I mean I asked because I get asked this a lot right, like people whether their clients or just people I know they\u2019re always interested in, you know, it\u2019s a problem getting, it\u2019s a problem getting ROI on conferences nowadays Return On Investment, so it\u2019s a hot topic among people on the winder side.<\/p>\n<p>I think your impression kind of sums up what I hear and kind of my own beliefs and understanding is that it is, you know, it\u2019s not the kind of thing where you\u2019re going to end up with like 500 like well ordered leads in a excel spreadsheet or something like that right, which can be extremely valuable and extremely unvaluable depending on who they are and how they use it and everything right. And so but it is I do sort of feel like these especially with CloudCamp like it\u2019s kind of I mean it is like just showing up it\u2019s just being part of the community, if you will.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to sponsor it even whether it\u2019s at the $500 or a $1,000 level or whatever like that\u2019s a way to be even more part of the community and really, you know, what I really think it is john is basically it\u2019s good brand advertising right like it may not be extremely efficient transactional advertising for a vendor right like to your point there\u2019s a 100, 120 people there right.<\/p>\n<p>So, it may not be a big bang for your buck as far as like exactly tracking the process of like giving \u2013 finding customers, giving them knowledge, telling them why they\u2019re confusing, why they need to give you money right which is like, the cloud, you know, it\u2019s a cynical version of tech marketing is like create a mess, tell people they have that mess and then get them to pay you to clean up the mess is, you know, a very cynical way of looking at things but pretty crystal clear.<\/p>\n<p>Well any ways but well a lot of what you\u2019re doing is just sort of brand advertising right, so and, you know, you can see that, you know, RightScale, for example, since you bring, they have like a very strong brand I think in this area. And a lot of it, you know, they were like, I guess they\u2019ve been around two or three years now but when they were first starting out, like no one really knew who these crazy RightScale people was and then Michael Crandell right their CEO like I remember that guy was, and he is still is to some degree, like that guy was everywhere.<\/p>\n<p>He was just like built up, they built up really good brand awareness and then in addition to the actual hard work of writing code that does stuff and winning customers like he threw it together those two things and I think you, he build up a pretty solid thing.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, you know, I already talk about that too and then the thing about Mike Crandell is that he was so accessible too I mean, you know, I was, I talking lot to Jesse our CEO is, you know, very popular, you know, very smart. And I\u2019m trying to get to say that, you know, there\u2019s this kind of new breed of CEO and they just, they make you feel like you\u2019re the most important person when you\u2019re talking to them. You know, and, you know, and that\u2019s part of, I mean, you know, part of it is like because they do it, you know, but part of it is they are actually kind of nice guys, you know, too.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> And it\u2019s kind of depressing that that\u2019s not the default way for Techworld executives to be.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, no [?].<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> You\u2019re exactly right.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> The idea of CEO being accessible, you know, even to the point where, you know, it\u2019s like you\u2019re just kicking, you know, kicking a soccer ball or bunch of things but, you know, in fact there was another guy I wanted to shout-out which is kind of something interesting is the SOASTA guys right, the CloudTest guys.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to buy the same kind of, you know, if somebody should like write a book or a article about the new kind of CEO because these guys have this kind of DNA that\u2019s not like the old school. They are just friendly as all get out, they\u2019re accessible. They make you feel good when you\u2019re talking to them. It doesn\u2019t feel dis-genuine, you know, you feel like it\u2019s genuine and, you know, they\u2019re interested and hear what you have to say.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re kind of power guys, you know, and it\u2019s an interesting, I think the companies that don\u2019t get that, you know, that just goes a long way I mean RightScale has done a lot of things right, excuse that kind of fun, but I mean a part of that fabric is Mike Crandell and, you know, and how that played out and I see the same thing happening [?] to know this Tom from SOASTA but I was going to mention that SOASTA actually announced, you know, so they do the cloud testing and they got all these great stories where they do, you know, they just blast tests and they can emulate 300,000 users in a 22 hour period for rollouts and because they\u2019re using the cloud as the backend, he was at Amazon primarily. I wanted to say I didn\u2019t know I was talking to those guys recently is they have always had a really deep kind of whole lab analytical back end, analytics back end.<\/p>\n<p>So they have &#8212; and it was kind of interesting because they didn\u2019t really pronounce that so much, you know, the early [?] their product was cloud testing. But right from the get-go they based in the idea that they were going to snap in with all the different tools. And so they just recently announced this kind of cloud test analytics where they and they\u2019ve kind of had it all long but now they\u2019ve kind of brought it now from kind of tip of the iceberg type thing. They were showing really what their deep back end is all about.<\/p>\n<p>So not only doing the test, they actually like tap into like IBM Tivoli or Nimsoft or different tools and they will actually go ahead and throw that all into OLAP and they are actually be BI type, performance management BI guys that, you know, at their core I mean so that gets really, really interesting.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> So what are they like doing with the analytics?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well they can, you know, so they take all those performance data and they data warehouse it. You know, so you run this test, so it isn\u2019t just, \u201coh yeah it broke.\u201d \u201cGood, you go fix it,\u201d you know, what I mean. It\u2019s like \u201cit broke and it looks like, you know, based on this, you know, this, you know, these cubes or the OLAP reports that it looks like, you know, you started breaking here, you know, this buffer got backed up,\u201d you know, what I mean? So, you know, just basically kind of doing what performance monitoring tools should have been, you know, doing all long which is kind of aggregating and looking for, you know, patterns of, you know, that\u2019s why I always &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I mean do they just do that for a customer or do they start to aggregate stuff over other people?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, they don\u2019t, as I said the [?] I know you\u2019re always thinking about that so yeah. No it\u2019s a great idea it\u2019s funny whenever I hear you, I just [?] holy grail but &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah you know it.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> One repository in the sky that basically allows us to basically look cross history, cross company and might say what\u2019s good, what\u2019s \u2013<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah it\u2019s like dummy eye right?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> It\u2019s, you know, sort of like self aware intelligent thing but it\u2019s just bring for us like pattern recommendation.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah I don\u2019t think they do that but &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, that would be a really difficult problem to solve when it comes to QAing stuff.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Typically for theirs because as far as I can tell they\u2019re not encroaching on kind of the Zenoss marketing or anything like that. In fact, you know, what they\u2019re saying is, you know, a test by itself is great but a test where you can then analyze in gory detail what happened with tons of metrics and then also, you know, using state of the art data warehousing techniques to do that analysis becomes a much more powerful test right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Alright.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> In fact, I think part of them say that; I mean they\u2019re trying to going after the whole Mercury Interactive which was the HP story right from a cloud angle, you know. So I mean that\u2019s ultimately what the whole Mercury was all about, was kind of, you know, running test but then storing back data, you know, so anyway, so that\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p>So I\u2019m doing all that and then one of the thing I also want to say about the CloudCamp I was actually, got to meet, I\u2019ve met Reuven Cohen a bunch of times but actually I went over to his office and hung out with those a guys for a little bit.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh yeah because he is on up there in the Canada, the &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> [?], so they invited me over to their office and I got a quick demo of their Enomaly and \u2013<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, I saw they had some announcement about some super secured something using Intel Hardware, cloud and infrastructure.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well that\u2019s a thing, you know, it\u2019s about, you know, people, you know, a lot of people think, you know, what is, I always see people talk about, you know, the Enomaly or I\u2019ve never seen it work those sort of, they showed me bunch of places where it\u2019s running and actually doing really well within, they\u2019ve kind of collaboration with Intel and in Asia they\u2019ve got some really interesting customers. So it\u2019s, you know, for those people that are and myself was, I weren\u2019t sure myself but I mean it\u2019s real stuff and it works. You know, it\u2019s a true private cloud they, sell what they call a White Label, Private White Label Cloud and so they sell it to other people that want to have a cloud, kind of like what and then had we talked about 3Tera and CA yet or we talked that out?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah. We did a little a bit, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Okay that\u2019s right so.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> You\u2019ve got the, you\u2019ve got the 3Tera Cassatt, Nimsoft and Oblicore.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh yeah, yeah, announcement.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Which is all going together but, you know, if there\u2019s \u2013<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Pretty interesting stuff that\u2019s how, we did that remark yeah so that, so yeah so Enomaly ECP. I mean I think I mean they\u2019ve got some stuff going there and one other thing I was going to mention to is, so you have by stupid cloudiest thing that I\u2019ve done last two years.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh yeah. This year chef takes top price.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, no, no, no, no. okay, no Michael. No, so no. In fact I\u2019m glad that was a great lead into this. So Dave Nelson the Cloud king right? And so he approached me and said, \u201chey, you know, I love this cloudy thing why don\u2019t we make it something real and big?\u201d You know, and I\u2019m like, yeah what the heck I mean it\u2019s usually just a pain in the ass thing [?] I do, you know, in the later days of December because I figure I did when last year, you know.<\/p>\n<p>So what we\u2019re going to do first cut is, we\u2019re going to announce it next week at the CloudCamp and we\u2019re going to have it run through CloudCamp and we\u2019re going to make it, you know, this first year we\u2019re going to do make a quasi official, we\u2019re going to select the team of people to be on a panel in fact that you are one of the guys I was going to invite if you wanted to be on this kind of committee, we\u2019ll pick a committee and we\u2019ll get, I think there\u2019s a couple of other guys, well known cloud guys who\u2019ll have a lot of committee of Judith Hurwitz is &#8212; so you Judith, I think, I don\u2019t, can everybody talk to [?] possibly and his, and maybe Mark or somebody like that and we\u2019ll get all on a team or a committee and then we\u2019re going to go ahead and officially state the categories. And as a committee we\u2019ll pick the like two or three in each category and then we\u2019ll put up on a website so people can vote.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh that sounds wonderful.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, so, so it\u2019s still, we still want to maintain the kind of whacking us like have all these weighted categories and have [?] and then maybe next year even the committee will get voted in or something I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Well, use some of that couch money to make one of the [?] crystal award things.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> They, well it could be better than that because they, you know &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> You can send in one of those giant checks.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well, Dave is the sponsoring machine right so his idea to have a big old banquet sometime next year at one or two large events, you know, maybe the cloud.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s a good idea.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know, actually give people their awards and just do it real funny.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m looking forward to the 2010 Cloudy Awards.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, so I mean I mean you\u2019re, you know, so you might have, I don\u2019t know you might have to stay what did they say for the category of best analyst you might have to\u2013<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I\u2019ll have to recuse myself.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right you recuse yourself for that category.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I think that\u2019s what the people in black robes are supposed to do.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right so. Because I think, you know, you\u2019re always in the top running for a best analyst in my book, so &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, well, you know, so what are you going to do?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> What are you going to do?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> So I\u2019m trying to figure out a transition to, you know, when I noticed speaking of analysts, did you see that there was this post by Gartner\u2019s Cameron Haight where he\u2019s kind of like getting towards, you know, leaning towards the whole dev\/ops sort of thing. And I\u2019ll put a link to it in the show notes as always. But it\u2019s from I guess it was from last week the 7th of April according to the date I\u2019m looking at. And, you know, it was a nice summing up of like there\u2019s this crazy stuff going on here.<\/p>\n<p>He linked it to Damon and [?] over at DTO, the dev2ops blog and [?] and even to the IT Skeptic and also to the Agile executive where I do a very small amount I basically help one of my old bosses who is real [?] mostly runs that and we do a little bit of dev\/ops stuff over there but it\u2019s exciting, more people getting in to this business.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, so I mean the thing is this that, you know, I know Gartner is involved in this. So it\u2019s I mean it\u2019s interesting I mean it brings awareness that\u2019s positive and I should look at it in the &#8212; you know, part of my, put on my &#8212; now I work for vendor hat and it\u2019s like great, you know, take off my now I\u2019ve, you know, when I didn\u2019t work for a vendor hat, and, you know, it\u2019s like I\u2019m already seeing companies starting listing themselves it\u2019s \u201cHey, you know, we got a dev\/ops too, you know, here is our dev\/ops,\u201d you know, and I\u2019m, you know, it\u2019s like cloud, you know, what I mean, you know, so that preludes the, you know, I mean there\u2019s all these arguments about people are already arguing about dev\/ops, you know, and it\u2019s like, \u201cWhat\u2019s the argument? It\u2019s a concept,\u201d it\u2019s you know, it\u2019s, you know, it\u2019s a high level kind of theme or a spectrum that, you know, of, you know, how we should attack a problem and what type of, you know, ways we should we go about this.<\/p>\n<p>And it already gets &#8212; when it\u2019s got to this point where people already going to try to, you know, I can\u2019t, you know, like people said what a hypocrite because I, you know, I mean I do try to commercialize Opscode as part of a fabric for things that, we have dev\/ops but you won\u2019t see me say, \u201cwe\u2019re the dev\/ops product,\u201d right. I mean there is, there are things that I think are fabric of this concept of dev\/ops, you know, and to be honest with you actually I\u2019ve been getting kind of beat down on this argument and the dev\/ops people are going to hate this.<\/p>\n<p>So, when everybody likes Harleys, I like to go buy a Kawasaki I\u2019m just wondering one of those kind of guy, right. So now that everybody likes dev\/ops, I\u2019m starting to think that that it\u2019s less about dev\/ops, and it\u2019s more about how do you make if I, there\u2019s a great article this morning in InfoQ I was just half way reading before &#8212; and I got called off on something else but it\u2019s how do I &#8212; the truth of the matter is in my mind, I\u2019ve been in operations my whole life right.<\/p>\n<p>So I have a perspective to be done. And dev\/ops in some ways is an apology of operations but we have a lot to be, you know, we\u2019ve got a lot of things we need to apologize about right we suck, you know, what I mean, sorry folks, you know, the development world in the last 15 years has gotten very mature. You\u2019ve got agile methodology, you have, you use sophisticated tools for development, you use collaborative techniques right. It\u2019s never single minded focus. And in operations we\u2019re in most cases still, you know, Bob scripts wherever Bob keeps them and when Bob dies all hell breaks loose, you know.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s no operations, you know, manifesto, all right. I mean there\u2019s no, you know, people talk about creating a dev\/ops manifesto but truth of matter is development has their manifesto, operations doesn\u2019t. Development has it\u2019s pretty clean methodology or different methodologies for doing their, what they did 15 years ago is much better today, and they use tools, and operations in many cases are still, you know, single focused, you know, individually focused non process driven, not methodical, you know, Bob script, Bob\u2019s directories, you know.<\/p>\n<p>I think that what really needs to happen is and this is my [?] that operations is to pony up and supply dev what they needed to get their job done. And I think it\u2019s more about I got hammered on a tweet where I said, you know, maybe it\u2019s not dev\/ops maybe it\u2019s self service operations for developers.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah and you know we\u2019ve talked about fine about this a little bit especially in reference to some of the stuffs at Pulse where, you know, operations has another difference between provisioning a server right or infrastructure and then getting it fully configured so developing can start working with it, which is just one angle on that. You know, this is like, this sort of topic is something that I whenever I talk with people about cloud for an extended period of time I try to bring up and especially like the cloud keynote I gave it that Philly ETE thing like it was one of the points that, you know, and I was speaking to a developer crowd.<\/p>\n<p>So I was being more on the developer side and saying, you know, you got to, you got to get to be friends with the operations people right. Either you got to get rid of all of them and do it all yourself and wake up at 3 a.m. and you know enjoy your life after that or you got to get friendly with them at some point and I think it\u2019s, but it\u2019s bidirectional, right I mean &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Right you know, I think it\u2019s that operations has to give them the tools that they need to be able to do the things, so that you know, I love the story of what JPMorgan Chase did with Tivoli and I probably told this five or six times over the last, how long have we been doing this now two years?.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Something like that.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Okay, right and so but it\u2019s a great story, and I think it fits here very well and that, at one point everybody in JPMorgan Chase hated Tivoli. They paid ridiculous amount of money for it. So JPMorgan chase runs as multiples like 17 different business units. Investment banking, merchandise and just all different divisions that are almost silo companies, right?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So there was one team that brought in Tivoli and you know, Plan A was to get all the different business units to write and do their own Tivoli monitoring and all that stuff, and that never worked. You know they were so busy, the last thing they want to do is learn a product and a new technology that wasn\u2019t part of their core focus.<\/p>\n<p>So then Plan B was, you know, this kind of glass house federated group would actually go ahead and make the choices for them, that never worked, right. Because then you got the, you know, \u201cwhy did you wake me up at three in the morning and tell me that an, you know a file system that has Oracle databases on it is 90% full.\u201d \u201cWell it\u2019s a 100 gig and it\u2019s supposed to be 90%.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So what they were one of the few very successful Tivoli monitoring companies that actually got full value out of the product and what they did is, they wrote, they built the wall between Tivoli and the business units. And so what they did, they implemented a self service implementation where the people in business units could basically fill in the blanks of everything you want to do.<\/p>\n<p>The word Tivoli didn\u2019t matter and they got exactly what they wanted. And you know what, at the end of the day, the business unit, the developers and the quasi sys admins in the business units were happy with this help and for the first time they were monitoring what they wanted to monitor, they were, you know, they had control, they knew you know, if they got an alert, they knew where it was, they knew where it came from.<\/p>\n<p>The operators were just as happy because they didn\u2019t, you know, they got woken up, if they got called at three in the morning by one of the guys in the business unit saying, \u201cWhy the hell did you send me alert in three in the morning?\u201d He\u2019ll say, \u201cDude, look what you have put in the self service portal. You said if this is over 80 call you at three in the morning.\u201d You know, \u201cLeave me alone; I am going back to bed,\u201d you know.<\/p>\n<p>They were &#8212; operations focus on giving them the ability to do their job and that was their job, their job was make sure the infrastructure was up and the tools that they are provided or the abstraction, the execution of the abstraction that they have developed always worked and never failed.<\/p>\n<p>I think that to me, that\u2019s what operations needs to do, operations needs to man up and give development, not that it is dev\/ops and you know, I mean I think dev\/ops is great idea but I think before you can talk about true dev\/ops, I think you have to figure out that operations has got you know not, I know every once a while I get somebody to tweet up and be furious with me about something I said on a podcast.<\/p>\n<p>Our good friend from Oracle was really upset about something I said last time, I don\u2019t remember, but for the people who are doing it right, I am not talking about you, all right, because there are companies that get this right. But more people don\u2019t get it right, and I am talking about the people who don\u2019t get it right. They need to &#8212; I think operations needs to man up and get &#8212; put something on the table in form of allowing developers to go as far as they need to go and today it\u2019s about allowing them to control the destiny of their deployment, right?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I think in the future though &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> The way I put it and the talk I gave is that the, you know, and again this is coming the from the development angle, but the point being that operations needs to enable this and embrace it is that you know if you are a developer, it sort of like your responsibility for the code sort of ends once you build the final, the image or whatever right, sort of like, you stop being responsible for the code and you give it over to operations people.<\/p>\n<p>If you think about it it\u2019s kind of not very, it\u2019s pretty irresponsible to be that way. I mean if to be out like highfalutin if you are like a craftsman right, you should be interested in the way people are using your code and responsible for it and everything. And it seems like, I mean I think on the development side, people are not used to think and in the main stream and in the whole of the development world, they are not really used to thinking that way, right. That, they would actually be responsible for the application and production. To your point right, like operations doesn\u2019t exactly facilitate that and make it easier because they don\u2019t trust developers. I mean both of them don\u2019t trust each other to do their job. Essentially or mess with their job in any way.<\/p>\n<p>So operations might give production requirements to developers and developers think it\u2019s all crazy and then application people might like want to, like talk to ops people, like \u201cyou should set it up this way and these are the kind of things you should do and everything.\u201d And any ways it seems like there should be, there is, there used to be a lot more sharing of responsibility of the application you are supporting.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I think that I am not firm believer of live and die by this but I mean I think that operations to be successful has to build on abstraction layer for the business unit owners, developers whatever you want to call them to be able to, and in fact if we circle really back to the Amazon story early, in a lot of ways Amazon is fulfilling that kind of destiny, right.<\/p>\n<p>In other words they have built so many features now that a developer can actually manage an operational infrastructure without operations. Well that\u2019s what to be, so it\u2019s really that, you know if operations wants to succeed you know they are going to have to pony up and, and do because their competition is places like Amazon and cloud and things that you know it\u2019s not about the competition, it\u2019s about server replacement. It\u2019s about the end, the end game, right and so you know people talk about, \u201cWell we are going to be private cloud,\u201d well private cloud would be a massive failure as well, because if all you have done is given them the ability to just do the same thing they are doing over and over but you\u2019re still not helping them manage the op.<\/p>\n<p>I mean it\u2019s about the abilities. I got that from, from Damon, in fact I called \u2018Damian\u2019 on our last one, he is furious. So Damon Edwards of DTO Solutions you know he calls them the abilities, right. You know the manageability, the availability. And so I mean today operations just gets in the table of manageability of things like configuration and deployment and continuous integration and all that.<\/p>\n<p>Then there are some shining stars there. But really at the end of the day I mean IBM 15 or 12 years ago created a DMTF, this isn\u2019t the first time I have said this on this podcast. A DMTF specification called AMS, it was called Application Management Specification where a, this is exactly the problem they tried to solve. You know it failed for many reasons but they tried to put in place an industry standard, that application developers could speck out the manageability of their application and it not only included inventory and configuration management it also included monitoring and event management.<\/p>\n<p>This is 12 years ago, IBM saw this, you know, that you, they already were way ahead of the game in understanding the dev\/ops problem. They were actually trying to solve it as an industry standard you know 12 years. So we are talking about dev\/ops today. You know IBM had a blue print as part of DMTF, explicitly designed to solve the problem we are talking about that\u2019s red hot today at Gartner. In fact the guys that were around at Gartner back then they probably talked about it are all dead, you know. So there.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> There you go. Way to bring it back to the Gartner topic.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah now that you know all of the major vendors have talked about this dream of getting developers to instrument things, to put it in you know yet an another way right and &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I\u2019d love to see.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Hopefully this dev\/ops thing will get towards that.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know someday we need to get your buddy on, the guy who is the DMTF guy that works with VM, VMware now.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Winston Bumpus.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah let\u2019s get him on; because he\u2019d know about this, right, he\u2019s being doing it ever. And I\u2019d like to talk to him about, you know whatever happened, why don\u2019t we you know, we are all talking about dev\/ops, now is the time to like resurrect that idea.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s a good idea John.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> It happened here on the IT Management Podcast. The genesis of the resurrection of the AMS standard as part of DMTF that will solve the dev\/ops problem started today.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s right, dust off your SOA architecture books folks.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Because there is a whole bunch of that coming.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> All right, well let\u2019s get it on, let\u2019s talk about. We have been talking about getting him on a podcast and then\u2026<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, all that.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Plus we talk about the dev\/ops, the OVF all how this stuff all, it\u2019s time to actually resurrect this concept.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> So John here I am, I am on my iPhone, you have heard of the iPhone.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yes. I have, I certainly have, I already have.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I am opening up the things to do application and I am writing in \u2018get Bumpus.\u2019 But you know while I am doing this on the iPhone have you used that, that wacky iPad thing?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No have you? Oh! You have.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> I\u2019ve used it for two days John and I\u2019ve got to tell you I haven\u2019t stop thinking about it since.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh! No, my wife let me buy one.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: She won\u2019t let you?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: You know what wives are, they are the biggest preventer for us wasting money on awesome gadgets.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Why are they trying to save us money?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> It\u2019s easier for me to get a new requirement in an Opscode through a justification process than it is to actually get new technology in my house.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I mean, I mean I could be taking my cart full of gadgets to the poor house, if it weren\u2019t from my wife Kim, I would own every, every single stupid gadget out there.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Now we need to get Bumpus to work on this one too here.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: But yeah, you know, there really is, you know, there is a whole lot of abstract cloud I\u2019ve had related stuff, but you know, I wrote a review of it and I said it was pretty awesome, but it\u2019s a little expensive. It really is, you know, it\u2019s a nice device and when I was at that conference last week, there were a few people who were iPading it as it were, you know, only bringing the iPad.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know, you want to be, you definitely want to be, I mean I you know, I am not really, you know, you\u2019ve seen me in person I\u2019m not a well dressed guy. I don\u2019t look great but, but it would be fun to be &#8212; get bumped up the first class and on my next flight and be sitting there, to be the first guy in first class with your iPad, \u201cOh! Hey well you got an iPad hey oh.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: What\u2019s going on with that? Anyway we would [?] miss except to mention that Rackspace had some sort of &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Oh yeah actually at the Cloud Connect one of the guys from Rackspace was showing me the kind of prototype of that application, very cool, I mean the iPad is very exciting for I think potential, you know, manageability or ability tools, you know, you start thinking about the, we\u2019ve talked about this before this the idea that you really can\u2019t get kind of a dashboard or and really see some, you know, things that are going on in your enterprise and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, I know it\u2019s a, it\u2019s a, you know it\u2019s a good device I think I don\u2019t know, I mean I have to see what happens, I mean if I were to buy one I think I would wait to spend even more money and buy the ones that got 3D in it. So it\u2019s not just wireless bound.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, that would be kind of cool.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: It just, yeah, it just like, you know, I am completely off topic here, but really like it really is a really efficient way to read a lot of stuff really quickly, which is exactly the criticism that it gets, that it\u2019s only good for reading, but man I feel like I feel like the, when I had it and I had also had a lot of calls to wake up early in the morning and a lot of sleepless nights, but I feel like I really caught up on all of my, my Google Reader stuff, which is kind of amazing like nowadays like I read through everything and I feel like I finally caught up on it.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s pretty cool yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I think part of it was like was like, you know, the mobile interface for Google Reader on the iPad is really good.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: So, anyway they were a few little items I wanted to, I wanted to mention. I\u2019m sure you got a few things left, but you know, we forget to or admitted to mention this last time, but our friends at Reductive Labs have very smartly renamed themselves Puppet Labs.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, I saw that pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, so they got now you don\u2019t have to because it\u2019s use to be I would always be, and I\u2019m sure this happened to you, you would be like, you know, Reductive Labs, the people who make puppet.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: So there was that; so what else oh and also, you know, the announcement round up at the end there was a, last week GroundWork and Eucalyptus had a partnership announcement where they, they GroundWork and Eucalyptus have gotten together to do some sort of monitoring and management stuff for private cloud installs. And they were actually, you know, in addition to announcing their partnership, they were, they were trolling and I mean that in a good way for, for beta testers for that set up. So if you sort of interested in beta testing they\u2019re definitely looking for people to beta test using GoundWork and Eucalyptus together as far as private cloud.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I may go to a ball game with some of those guys, your Simon buddy there?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Oh! Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So I am going to be out there for the OpsCamp that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Simon Bennett right.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, yeah so I was watching there was a baseball game the other day [?] San Francisco it was just, that stadium out there it\u2019s just awesome I\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: You know, I\u2019ve been to their office.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> It\u2019s right across the street yeah I know.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I forget, I guess I\u2019ve been only there once or something, but there is a place up, up there and I think it\u2019s called Dogpatch I don\u2019t anything about San Francisco, but yeah you are right, it\u2019s down by the stadium. I think they are really close to the Twitter offices and there is a place called 21st Amendment and I think they actually have a Twitter Beer. So you should, you should definitely go up there and try to get the Twitter Beer.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So I just tweeted hey man that place looks like kind of, I mean just watching that, seeing that ball field and those things man it just a great place to catch a day game and you just say when you come up here I\u2019m like I\u2019m going to be up here and may for the OpsCamp, you know.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: There you go.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Then let\u2019s see &#8212; I think the only other thing I was going to point out is I actually signed up for a little seven day trial, you know, GigaOM Pro they have this like paywall around some of the research content that they have and they had like a infrastructure cloud quarterly review and I was like hey I\u2019ll check that out and so I signed up for a little seven day trial, which I need to go cancel before they charge me it\u2019s like $79.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Alright now since you put me on the spot earlier, so that\u2019s a good invest or not for a guy like me?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Well, I think, I\u2019ll tell you, I\u2019ll tell you, I don\u2019t think I\u2019m going to sign up for it because I sort of already read through all this stuff right, I mean it\u2019s kind of my job. So it\u2019s, but I do have to say like looking through all the other research that they have that their quarterly review is things like infrastructure like I forget the name of the dude who does their infrastructure stuff, but man it is really comprehensive like I was reading through, they\u2019ve only done it for four or five quarters and it really is like you read it through it and you like oh! Yeah that happened, that happened that happened and it really is they round up everything and so. So it\u2019s actually.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I\u2019m actually going to &#8212;<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Like thinking about if this isn\u2019t what I do as a job partly right, I mean it really would be, it would be really easy to go into there and, you know, pay your $79 a year, which is a rebate or discount or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>I think you could kind of, you know, just like stick you head in that corner every now and then and get an update of what\u2019s happening. The other content they had, it was kind of interesting too, I mean they had some stuff that was like, you know, a lot of stuff they have is kind of like beginner to lower level intermediate stuff, right.<\/p>\n<p>So, how should you be using social media and things like that and that, you know, they also have a lot of, you know, a lot of the, the background of GigaOM stuff is a lot of a telco broadband stuff like I think [?] use to cover a broadband and telco stuff and then like they have an Austin based persons Stacey Higginbotham who I met and very nice person and she does a lot of coverage of, you know, telcos and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>So they have a pretty interesting and I don\u2019t really cover that space at all, but they have interesting rap ups of stuff in the telco and broadband section and, you know, it\u2019s kind of interesting poking around there. So I think and, you know, the other thing is like really it\u2019s actually really cheap. It\u2019s like, like it\u2019s half off now, I don\u2019t know why I am talking so long about this, but you know, I\u2019m always fascinated about actually paying for content right?<\/p>\n<p>So I think, I think if you are someone whose job wasn\u2019t to follow this kind of stuff and, you know, their stuff is pretty worth paying attention to. Now I would say if you paid attention to my more or less daily like link collection if you kind of get a sense of the same sort of things happening, but you know, it\u2019s interesting stuff, so, so good on them for that infrastructure review was fun reading. And I think that\u2019s about all that I was going to mention you got any other last minute items to jimmy in there.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Jimmy in there how do you jimmy in something.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I don\u2019t know you just talk really loud, that usually works.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> No, we have covered everything on my list so.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, well, you know, I don\u2019t have any conferences coming up sound like you had a worldwide tour there. I actually have a &#8212; I\u2019m going to be on like a virtual panel with one of the guys from Zenoss next week talking about managing, you know, tips for managing the cloud how to put a &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That would be cool.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: I think it\u2019s actually during the same time that the Cloud Expo thing is, but &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s a busy week up there man, they got so much stuff going on. The I actually, I am going to, I\u2019m speaking, I\u2019m going to be speak, I got a couple of cool speaking games I\u2019m going to be at Oscon. So I am going to be doing some really cool are you going to go Oscon this year?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Probably not Steven O&#8217;Grady usually goes there.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah I knew Steven is there so and then so, but then I also got invited, first week of June to go to or second week of June to go Dublin to speak at this, it\u2019s a Java conference over there.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Let me pull it up here it\u2019s eyepiece, epicenter or something like that. Hold on.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Man you got to tell these people to invite me to these things I need more international travel John.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, no I mean.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: That Executive Platinum status doesn\u2019t get itself that\u2019s all.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah really I don\u2019t know some people laugh and say it\u2019s a big deal, but this is like the first year I got the gold status in March.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Wait, wait you know I &#8212; this is the first time I\u2019ve had Executive Platinum this year, so nice.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I think this.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Just like your whole another category of key person when you have Executive &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, I am going to<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: You know what happened?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> What?<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> The desk agent actually smiled at mean and was very nice, it was amazing.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go &#8212; it\u2019s a, what\u2019s Executive Platinum?<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: That\u2019s top tier Americans.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> But it\u2019s at 100,000.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Cote: Yeah, yeah it\u2019s the highest level John.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So last year, I am so pissed, I was, so on Delta what is it, 70,000 miles, 75,000 miles. I was like 735, you know, so I missed it by like about 1,500 miles you know.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s when you\u2019re like, hey honey you want to go to Tokyo?<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well you know it was December.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> But &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> And also you have kids.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s right, but, yeah, I know I think this year I\u2019m definitely going to make Platinum but you know that\u2019s not really a good thing.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know, of course kids are like &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Now, I always joke that\u2019s it\u2019s that that Executive Platinum is otherwise known as divorce status.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, really so &#8212; I think I was trying to hire and he said to me, he said, yeah John, he says I am looking to &#8212; so well so what you thought about travel and he is like, I think gold would probably be okay and platinum I might get a [?] I am not definitely not looking for job for Executive Platinum.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So we use that as your kind of &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> No, it\u2019s true although on the other hand I love to say when my wife Kim travels with me she, she doesn\u2019t enjoy quite a lot.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s the upside of those things.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Especially when you travel. Some people find this talk fascinating, but whatever, when we travel international and you have at least mid tier status on airlines you get really good, you get really good lounge access and everything which is, it\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Well, no I mean, you know for me, not you know this, theirs is a big thing about status is about being on the board early.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> A lot of airports you can take the short cut entrance.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh! Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> You know when you are, when you are going to, if you need to check in luggage you can always check in on the gold, you know the gold platinum line which, you know, sometimes and I can say how many times I would have missed my flight and you know and I was in Vegas, coming back from Vegas. It was like for some reason the airport lounge were like wrapping around the building and then they had a special line for platinum and I walked right through, you know, so\u2026<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, yeah, I always forget to take it back, because that\u2019s the line I need to look up, because it says first class. And usually that means that it\u2019s any ways, it usually\u2026<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I always, whenever I just want I go right through, so those thing, all those things on Delta man, the Delta awesome because I don\u2019t say this as an American but they know [?] like a week before the flight and you don\u2019t even have, you don\u2019t rush through anything.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Now if you have executive platinum they, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a week, but it\u2019s like that, they give you auto upgrades instead of you having to go ask credits for to whatever and they\u2019ll just do it and it\u2019s, I love that executive platinum status, very nice.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah but you, when you loose it you are going to be &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, well I\u2019ll get busted down to platinum or if my family is lucky I\u2019ll get busted down to nothing.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, when you hit down to gold they start spitting on you again and\u2026<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Well, you know, I know a tourist over at [?] mess him and I are like American Airline air status [?] buddies and we were emailing with each other when he was tracking. Once you get a million miles on American, you get lifetime gold and we were like I\u2019m counting down the miles, you got better [?] sometimes so that was &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah I wish [?] because I don\u2019t have &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> It will be an exciting event.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I don\u2019t\u2019 have that because I keep moving and then I keep winding up, I probably got like 600,000 and 700,000 on three different airlines.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh! John you got it. You are in Atlanta.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> [?] Delta was &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> That\u2019s what I am saying is like just always Delta, I always fly American.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> When I was in North Carolina it was American and I mean that was American was I lived in North Carolina for [?] and &#8212;<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> It used to be their hub.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, I hear you.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So listen to this, so I\u2019m going to be speaking with this, its Epicenter right, so it\u2019s Dublin in June.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Epicenter.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> So it\u2019s pretty cool and it\u2019s going to be and the venue pretty, pretty cool and it\u2019s actually a famous university there I\u2019m trying to get &#8212; here is the venue.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Trinity.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, Trinity College yeah ain\u2019t that pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah that will be fun, Dublin is a nice, I haven\u2019t been there forever.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I haven\u2019t been neither.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah, well that will, that will be good times right there.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> So you know, you get a little bit of airline information and a whole bunch of IT [?].<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> But you know I don\u2019t think there has been a whole lot of just good old fashion IT management news of late, although you know I have been taking a lot service desk people who are sort of recloudising themselves. So that\u2019s interesting but you know there you go, that\u2019s the week in IT Management &amp; Cloud.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> We should, you know I am trying to get these [?] they gave a great presentation.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Oh! Yeah I love to talk to them.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Yeah, so they did a presentation, was one of the best cloud presentations I have ever seen and, what they talked about is, how they are integrating their ITIL process into their kind of three tier cloud strategy and it\u2019s just, it\u2019s great start. You know I\u2019ll see you and [?]. They can at least talk about what they talked about [?] so.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019d be perfect.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> I\u2019ll try to, that\u2019d be cool. But let\u2019s get Bumpus; I want to do the Bumpus thing.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> All right, well it\u2019s my to-do application now.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> Once it involves the iPhone it generally gets done.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> There you go.<\/p>\n<p><b>Michael Cot\u00e9:<\/b> All right well, let\u2019s see everyone next time.<\/p>\n<p><b>John Willis:<\/b> Take care.<\/p>\n<p><b>Disclosure:<\/b> many RedMonk clients were mentioned, including John&#8217;s outfit, OpsCode. See <a href=\"http:\/\/www.redmonk.com\/clients\/\">the RedMonk client list<\/a> for clients.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Cloud queues &amp; middleware, Gartner &amp; dev\/ops, conference madness.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[44,34],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4454","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-itmanagementguys","category-systems-management"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4454","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4454"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4454\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4454"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4454"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/redmonk.com\/cote\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4454"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}