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	<title>Comments on: AGPL: Open Source Licensing in a Networked Age</title>
	<atom:link href="http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/</link>
	<description>because technology is just another ecosystem</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:39:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Legal Advice</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-597601</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Advice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-597601</guid>
		<description>The OPM is a fantastic contribution and I understand their frustrations when something they intended to be &#039;free&#039; ends up being monetised and used for commercial purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The OPM is a fantastic contribution and I understand their frustrations when something they intended to be &#8216;free&#8217; ends up being monetised and used for commercial purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: tecosystems &#187; tecosystems 2009: What You Read, How You Read It, and Where You Read it From</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-584784</link>
		<dc:creator>tecosystems &#187; tecosystems 2009: What You Read, How You Read It, and Where You Read it From</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 00:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-584784</guid>
		<description>[...] AGPL: Open Source Licensing in a Networked Age (9.1) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] AGPL: Open Source Licensing in a Networked Age (9.1) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tecosystems &#187; Does Copyright Matter? Or, is the End of Dual-Licensing Near?</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-560599</link>
		<dc:creator>tecosystems &#187; Does Copyright Matter? Or, is the End of Dual-Licensing Near?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-560599</guid>
		<description>[...] grasped the basics of the EveryBlock situation correctly. Short of the seriously underadopted AGPL, there are no licenses that would have prevent the quote unquote closing of the EveryBlock codebase [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] grasped the basics of the EveryBlock situation correctly. Short of the seriously underadopted AGPL, there are no licenses that would have prevent the quote unquote closing of the EveryBlock codebase [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tecosystems &#187; Does the GPL Matter? In a Word, Yes</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-560207</link>
		<dc:creator>tecosystems &#187; Does the GPL Matter? In a Word, Yes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-560207</guid>
		<description>[...] the even more restrictive AGPL &#8211; which closes the so-called ASP loophole &#8211; has seen very little adoption, high profile exceptions like Launchpad notwithstanding. Which may mean that the GPL has the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the even more restrictive AGPL &#8211; which closes the so-called ASP loophole &#8211; has seen very little adoption, high profile exceptions like Launchpad notwithstanding. Which may mean that the GPL has the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: E. Becerra</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542729</link>
		<dc:creator>E. Becerra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542729</guid>
		<description>@Greg:

I concede some of your points, but hope I can get some across as well. 

I agree that when producing free code, one fervently desires its most extreme adoption possible. Alas, opportunity costs rule any material reality. The &#039;materials&#039; in question being the effort of fellow programmers and the mindshare of the user base. (This is more generally true of any intellectual pursuit.)

IP regimes thus compete in a Red Queen&#039;s race which is particularly intense in the software &#039;industry&#039;. The most permissive licences, which intended to maximise user mindshare, were largely superseded by hereditarily free ones (such as the GPL family) because they were so open to defection. Now, a lack of users tends to a lack of coders, so both extremes (in the users vs. coders ratio) lead to the same death. Success should be found somewhere around Gotama&#039;s highly vaunted middle ground.

Is this middle ground nearest the GPL family, or BSDward of it (as your comment would imply). Statistics seem to place it much closer to the GPL than the Affero family, but this could be misleading, as the Afferos might be younger or less publicised.

Of course, the licence space is not linear. All the free licences seek to cooperate amongst themselves by sharing code, by presenting a united front against proprietary ones, while ultimetely competing against each other. There might be other unexplored options, but momentarily disregarding the unknown, I suspect that the sweet spot might lie somewhere between the best free licence and the best proprietary one. This magical licence of my intuition would combine the proven advantage of enforced reciprocity with the obvious benefits conferred by a steady flow of profits.

This &#039;perfect&#039; licence I speak of would be best only in an evolutionary sense. My bleeding heart would obviate the advantage of profits, or at least their inherence in any degree of proprietariness, or indeed deny the legitimacy of &#039;proprietas&#039; in general. Selective pressures, of course, could not care less for our sensibilities, and I suspect that certain large and small software firms owe their continued success to something other than mere inertia. Witness the remarkable success of the closed iphone silo.

Please do write your further thoughts on this matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg:</p>
<p>I concede some of your points, but hope I can get some across as well. </p>
<p>I agree that when producing free code, one fervently desires its most extreme adoption possible. Alas, opportunity costs rule any material reality. The &#8216;materials&#8217; in question being the effort of fellow programmers and the mindshare of the user base. (This is more generally true of any intellectual pursuit.)</p>
<p>IP regimes thus compete in a Red Queen&#8217;s race which is particularly intense in the software &#8216;industry&#8217;. The most permissive licences, which intended to maximise user mindshare, were largely superseded by hereditarily free ones (such as the GPL family) because they were so open to defection. Now, a lack of users tends to a lack of coders, so both extremes (in the users vs. coders ratio) lead to the same death. Success should be found somewhere around Gotama&#8217;s highly vaunted middle ground.</p>
<p>Is this middle ground nearest the GPL family, or BSDward of it (as your comment would imply). Statistics seem to place it much closer to the GPL than the Affero family, but this could be misleading, as the Afferos might be younger or less publicised.</p>
<p>Of course, the licence space is not linear. All the free licences seek to cooperate amongst themselves by sharing code, by presenting a united front against proprietary ones, while ultimetely competing against each other. There might be other unexplored options, but momentarily disregarding the unknown, I suspect that the sweet spot might lie somewhere between the best free licence and the best proprietary one. This magical licence of my intuition would combine the proven advantage of enforced reciprocity with the obvious benefits conferred by a steady flow of profits.</p>
<p>This &#8216;perfect&#8217; licence I speak of would be best only in an evolutionary sense. My bleeding heart would obviate the advantage of profits, or at least their inherence in any degree of proprietariness, or indeed deny the legitimacy of &#8216;proprietas&#8217; in general. Selective pressures, of course, could not care less for our sensibilities, and I suspect that certain large and small software firms owe their continued success to something other than mere inertia. Witness the remarkable success of the closed iphone silo.</p>
<p>Please do write your further thoughts on this matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Stein</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542332</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Stein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542332</guid>
		<description>I continue to shake my head with disbelief at people that produce Open Source (or Free) code, and then get *angry* at companies that *use* their code if that company does not &quot;give back&quot;. Why are you publishing the code in the first place?

The whole notion of counting the number of contributions to the Linux kernel is dead wrong. Open Source code is written to be *used*.

And everybody&#039;s favorite punching bag on this is Google, yet those same people aren&#039;t stopping to look at the massive contributions of Android and Chrome. Or the hundreds of smaller projects Google has  published and hosted on Google Code.

Writing Open Source code should not oblige your users to do anything. If you want that, then go back to a proprietary licensing model.

(I wrote about &quot;Giving Back&quot; a while ago: http://prng.blogspot.com/2009/02/giving-back.html)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I continue to shake my head with disbelief at people that produce Open Source (or Free) code, and then get *angry* at companies that *use* their code if that company does not &quot;give back&quot;. Why are you publishing the code in the first place?</p>
<p>The whole notion of counting the number of contributions to the Linux kernel is dead wrong. Open Source code is written to be *used*.</p>
<p>And everybody&#8217;s favorite punching bag on this is Google, yet those same people aren&#8217;t stopping to look at the massive contributions of Android and Chrome. Or the hundreds of smaller projects Google has  published and hosted on Google Code.</p>
<p>Writing Open Source code should not oblige your users to do anything. If you want that, then go back to a proprietary licensing model.</p>
<p>(I wrote about &quot;Giving Back&quot; a while ago: <a href="http://prng.blogspot.com/2009/02/giving-back.html)" >http://prng.blogspot.com/2009/02/giving-back.html)</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dirk Riehle</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542273</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirk Riehle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542273</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still a friend of the AGPL and explicitly closing the ASP loophole. If someone wants a permissive license to handle SaaS situations, choosing GPL is just not smart, since a permissive license is not the same as GPL&#039;s notion of &quot;not a distribution&quot;. So I think it will just take more time and education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still a friend of the AGPL and explicitly closing the ASP loophole. If someone wants a permissive license to handle SaaS situations, choosing GPL is just not smart, since a permissive license is not the same as GPL&#8217;s notion of &#8220;not a distribution&#8221;. So I think it will just take more time and education.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Radcliffe</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542245</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Radcliffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542245</guid>
		<description>I am glad we are in agreement!  I love Fabrizio (in fact I do work for him), but he is dead
wrong about how the decision was made on not including a network use clause in GPLv3. 
I ran the User Committee and we told FSF that if GPLv3 included a network user provision
it would be &quot;Dead on Arrival&quot;: no one would adopt it because corporate users would reject 
it due to the radical change in obligations.  Google was happy with that decision, but
it was not a Google led initiative. AGPL remains a license subject to significant scrutiny
before a corporation will use software which is licensed under it (I know because I work with
many corporations). You can argue the policy, but the reality is that GPLv3 would not have had
the success it currently enjoys with a network user provision. As you noted, GPLv3 and AGPLv3
are both choices and choice is good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad we are in agreement!  I love Fabrizio (in fact I do work for him), but he is dead<br />
wrong about how the decision was made on not including a network use clause in GPLv3.<br />
I ran the User Committee and we told FSF that if GPLv3 included a network user provision<br />
it would be &#8220;Dead on Arrival&#8221;: no one would adopt it because corporate users would reject<br />
it due to the radical change in obligations.  Google was happy with that decision, but<br />
it was not a Google led initiative. AGPL remains a license subject to significant scrutiny<br />
before a corporation will use software which is licensed under it (I know because I work with<br />
many corporations). You can argue the policy, but the reality is that GPLv3 would not have had<br />
the success it currently enjoys with a network user provision. As you noted, GPLv3 and AGPLv3<br />
are both choices and choice is good.</p>
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		<title>By: From Tolstoy to Tinker Bell. Down from Berkeley to Carmel. &#171; Tuna Park</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542221</link>
		<dc:creator>From Tolstoy to Tinker Bell. Down from Berkeley to Carmel. &#171; Tuna Park</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542221</guid>
		<description>[...] desired) licenses will be used more frequently and become the most well known.   The estimable Stephen O&#8217;Grady of RedMonk raises good points about the need not to get one&#8217;s knickers in a twist about the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] desired) licenses will be used more frequently and become the most well known.   The estimable Stephen O&#8217;Grady of RedMonk raises good points about the need not to get one&#8217;s knickers in a twist about the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Finch</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2009/04/15/open-source-licensing-in-a-networked-age/comment-page-1/#comment-542177</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Finch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/?p=2755#comment-542177</guid>
		<description>The ASP loophole demonstrates the consistency of the Free Software movement&#039;s position: Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen don&#039;t (as I understand it) care what Google does with Google&#039;s machines.  While they may have a preference for SaaS players to share code changes, it does not affect their (RMS&#039;s/Moglen&#039;s) freedom if they do not.

The open source movement, on the other hand, does care if a few players are able to build a lucrative business without contributing in the proportion you would expect a traditional software vendor to.

So, I would hold that people that care about the latter problem should not necessarily look to the Free Software philosophy for guidance.

Secondly, I think that your argument might be circular, just after &quot;let&#039;s assume&quot;.  Lack of AGPL adoption is not a problem because of the lack of AGPL adoption?  The GPL remains the most widely known, understood and respected license at least in part because this debate hasn&#039;t played out yet.   I am sure many projects will choose the GPL out of familiarity and that the &quot;market&quot; for licenses may be in a process of correction.   It is opinion-formers like yourself who are the most likely to accelerate such a change, I suspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ASP loophole demonstrates the consistency of the Free Software movement&#8217;s position: Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen don&#8217;t (as I understand it) care what Google does with Google&#8217;s machines.  While they may have a preference for SaaS players to share code changes, it does not affect their (RMS&#8217;s/Moglen&#8217;s) freedom if they do not.</p>
<p>The open source movement, on the other hand, does care if a few players are able to build a lucrative business without contributing in the proportion you would expect a traditional software vendor to.</p>
<p>So, I would hold that people that care about the latter problem should not necessarily look to the Free Software philosophy for guidance.</p>
<p>Secondly, I think that your argument might be circular, just after &#8220;let&#8217;s assume&#8221;.  Lack of AGPL adoption is not a problem because of the lack of AGPL adoption?  The GPL remains the most widely known, understood and respected license at least in part because this debate hasn&#8217;t played out yet.   I am sure many projects will choose the GPL out of familiarity and that the &#8220;market&#8221; for licenses may be in a process of correction.   It is opinion-formers like yourself who are the most likely to accelerate such a change, I suspect.</p>
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