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	<title>Comments on: Linux vs OpenSolaris&#8230;Again: The Q&#038;A</title>
	<atom:link href="http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/</link>
	<description>because technology is just another ecosystem</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: 451 CAOS Theory &#187; 451 CAOS Links - 2008.02.21</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-406683</link>
		<dc:creator>451 CAOS Theory &#187; 451 CAOS Links - 2008.02.21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-406683</guid>
		<description>[...] Linux vs OpenSolaris&#8230;Again: The Q&#38;A, RedMonk - tecosystems, Stephen O&#8217;Grady (Blog) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Linux vs OpenSolaris&#8230;Again: The Q&#38;A, RedMonk - tecosystems, Stephen O&#8217;Grady (Blog) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Organic vs. Non-Organic Open Source, Revisited &#124; Thoughts by Ted</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-368601</link>
		<dc:creator>Organic vs. Non-Organic Open Source, Revisited &#124; Thoughts by Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 04:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-368601</guid>
		<description>[...] source? Migrating from organic to synthetic communities&#8221;. Nessance referenced a series of questions and answers by Stephen O&#8217; Grady from Red Monk, where he claimed the distinction between the two [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] source? Migrating from organic to synthetic communities&#8221;. Nessance referenced a series of questions and answers by Stephen O&#8217; Grady from Red Monk, where he claimed the distinction between the two [...]</p>
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		<title>By: OpenSolaris trademark oder &#8230;es kann nur eine (Distro) geben? at Otmanix&#8217; Blog</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-321134</link>
		<dc:creator>OpenSolaris trademark oder &#8230;es kann nur eine (Distro) geben? at Otmanix&#8217; Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 01:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-321134</guid>
		<description>[...] O&#8217;Grady fasste in seinem Blog hier und hier die zu kl&#228;renden Postion zwischen Sun und den Vertretern der OpenSolaris Community, dem [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] O&#8217;Grady fasste in seinem Blog hier und hier die zu kl&#228;renden Postion zwischen Sun und den Vertretern der OpenSolaris Community, dem [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Glynn Foster</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-319344</link>
		<dc:creator>Glynn Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-319344</guid>
		<description>It's not through lack of interest in open development, it's simply that many engineers have never done it before. While you could argue that Sun is a community within itself, it's a little harder for most people to find the right balance between being effective, communicating well, and quite simply, walking the line between an ideal community vision and a corporate agenda - and let's not kid ourselves, Sun is a business as well. Thanks for the blog Stephen - will owe you a beer for your pain!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not through lack of interest in open development, it&#8217;s simply that many engineers have never done it before. While you could argue that Sun is a community within itself, it&#8217;s a little harder for most people to find the right balance between being effective, communicating well, and quite simply, walking the line between an ideal community vision and a corporate agenda - and let&#8217;s not kid ourselves, Sun is a business as well. Thanks for the blog Stephen - will owe you a beer for your pain!</p>
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		<title>By: David Comay</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-319098</link>
		<dc:creator>David Comay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-319098</guid>
		<description>Stephen, your Q&#38;A is as usual good, fair reading all around.  I do have a couple of clarifications I'd like to make though (you know I was going to do this, didn't you?) :-)

I obviously disagree with Michael's characterizations of the project but I do think it's particularly unfair to say that most or all of the OpenSolaris development processes are done inside of Sun.  It's true the vast majority of commits are done by Sun employees and it's true that the "master" SCM for the core kernel/library/utility "consolidation" still lives inside Sun's firewall.

However, there has been a great deal of work the past three years in pushing large amounts of development work to be *outside* of Sun's infrastructure.  Much of the project work that takes place occurs on the public mailing lists housed on opensolaris.org, architecture reviews are almost completely done out in the open nowadays, public code reviews are routinely done, etc.  Clearly, we need to do better on this but it's certainly neither a closed development model nor is it an aquarium model where folks are simply looking in.  We're in an awkward transition phase but that transition continues to take place and I expect things to only improve on that score.

The fact that one of the repositories in currently inside Sun's firewall and is instead mirrored to the outside is a reality today but that's considered a high-priority bug that's being fixed.  The issue is complex since it's not simply a matter of putting the Mercurial repository out there but including all of the relevant change acceptance required for commits to be done (someone needs to sign off on a request to commit, the commit needs to be done and then there's various "paperwork" like bug tracking that needs to be updated).  Once those things come together later this year, the community will gladly throw out the "request sponsor" method and folks outside of Sun will be able to commit directly into the master source base (I should note that other parts of OpenSolaris are already outside the firewall and have outside folks doing commits today).

So while OpenSolaris may not look like Linux in terms of how the project is run, I suspect it won't look like MySQL either.  Perhaps it will be something in between or 

I do bemoan about all the heat and the very little light that comes from these discussions.  And I think it's unfortunate that it at times overshadows what I think are the interesting technical things being done by the Indiana project and OpenSolaris as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, your Q&amp;A is as usual good, fair reading all around.  I do have a couple of clarifications I&#8217;d like to make though (you know I was going to do this, didn&#8217;t you?) <img src='http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I obviously disagree with Michael&#8217;s characterizations of the project but I do think it&#8217;s particularly unfair to say that most or all of the OpenSolaris development processes are done inside of Sun.  It&#8217;s true the vast majority of commits are done by Sun employees and it&#8217;s true that the &#8220;master&#8221; SCM for the core kernel/library/utility &#8220;consolidation&#8221; still lives inside Sun&#8217;s firewall.</p>
<p>However, there has been a great deal of work the past three years in pushing large amounts of development work to be *outside* of Sun&#8217;s infrastructure.  Much of the project work that takes place occurs on the public mailing lists housed on opensolaris.org, architecture reviews are almost completely done out in the open nowadays, public code reviews are routinely done, etc.  Clearly, we need to do better on this but it&#8217;s certainly neither a closed development model nor is it an aquarium model where folks are simply looking in.  We&#8217;re in an awkward transition phase but that transition continues to take place and I expect things to only improve on that score.</p>
<p>The fact that one of the repositories in currently inside Sun&#8217;s firewall and is instead mirrored to the outside is a reality today but that&#8217;s considered a high-priority bug that&#8217;s being fixed.  The issue is complex since it&#8217;s not simply a matter of putting the Mercurial repository out there but including all of the relevant change acceptance required for commits to be done (someone needs to sign off on a request to commit, the commit needs to be done and then there&#8217;s various &#8220;paperwork&#8221; like bug tracking that needs to be updated).  Once those things come together later this year, the community will gladly throw out the &#8220;request sponsor&#8221; method and folks outside of Sun will be able to commit directly into the master source base (I should note that other parts of OpenSolaris are already outside the firewall and have outside folks doing commits today).</p>
<p>So while OpenSolaris may not look like Linux in terms of how the project is run, I suspect it won&#8217;t look like MySQL either.  Perhaps it will be something in between or </p>
<p>I do bemoan about all the heat and the very little light that comes from these discussions.  And I think it&#8217;s unfortunate that it at times overshadows what I think are the interesting technical things being done by the Indiana project and OpenSolaris as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Rufus Polson</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318795</link>
		<dc:creator>Rufus Polson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318795</guid>
		<description>I think for Sun one consideration is probably that they'd like to have it both, or all three, ways.
They want the positive reputation effects that come from going open source--to such an extent that there was talk of going GPL3 as I recall.  Ideally they want the bugfixing and development help that can come from going open source.
Meanwhile, they also want to maintain as much control as possible, partly because it's such a key piece of software for them, partly because that's just how their organization is structured and it's hard for them to do otherwise.
But finally, they don't want to be seen as exerting so much control that annoyed open source coders will move in large numbers to a fork over which they have no control.

I don't know how much the CDDL does to hinder that, but ultimately if it's not forkable it's not open source.  MySQL has always used the model they use, so people are used to it, and at the same time their code has always been GPL, which reassures people that if it becomes a problem they *can* fork; this knowledge in turn probably keeps the MySQL folks from pulling any proprietary-style moves with their database.  And they've never really courted anyone's approval.
But with Sun, we're looking at a process of change, so there is no status quo situation of long standing that everyone's learned to accept.  And they *are* clearly trying for community approval.  People, and I'd say Free Software people in particular, react worse to someone claiming to be doing something wonderful and then putting in caveats than to someone who just did what they did and let the situation speak for itself, even if the substance is similar.  So a serious fork is not out of the question; Sun is unlikely to go the MySQL route because while MySQL can get away with it, Sun quite likely cannot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think for Sun one consideration is probably that they&#8217;d like to have it both, or all three, ways.<br />
They want the positive reputation effects that come from going open source&#8211;to such an extent that there was talk of going GPL3 as I recall.  Ideally they want the bugfixing and development help that can come from going open source.<br />
Meanwhile, they also want to maintain as much control as possible, partly because it&#8217;s such a key piece of software for them, partly because that&#8217;s just how their organization is structured and it&#8217;s hard for them to do otherwise.<br />
But finally, they don&#8217;t want to be seen as exerting so much control that annoyed open source coders will move in large numbers to a fork over which they have no control.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how much the CDDL does to hinder that, but ultimately if it&#8217;s not forkable it&#8217;s not open source.  MySQL has always used the model they use, so people are used to it, and at the same time their code has always been GPL, which reassures people that if it becomes a problem they *can* fork; this knowledge in turn probably keeps the MySQL folks from pulling any proprietary-style moves with their database.  And they&#8217;ve never really courted anyone&#8217;s approval.<br />
But with Sun, we&#8217;re looking at a process of change, so there is no status quo situation of long standing that everyone&#8217;s learned to accept.  And they *are* clearly trying for community approval.  People, and I&#8217;d say Free Software people in particular, react worse to someone claiming to be doing something wonderful and then putting in caveats than to someone who just did what they did and let the situation speak for itself, even if the substance is similar.  So a serious fork is not out of the question; Sun is unlikely to go the MySQL route because while MySQL can get away with it, Sun quite likely cannot.</p>
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		<title>By: A Solution for Sun&#8217;s OS Community Problems &#171; Ian Skerrett</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318658</link>
		<dc:creator>A Solution for Sun&#8217;s OS Community Problems &#171; Ian Skerrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318658</guid>
		<description>[...] Fielding, a longtime Apache member who was trying to help the OpenSolaris community get started. Stephen O&#8217;Grady and Michael Dolan have some excellent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fielding, a longtime Apache member who was trying to help the OpenSolaris community get started. Stephen O&#8217;Grady and Michael Dolan have some excellent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Davies</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318607</link>
		<dc:creator>Dick Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318607</guid>
		<description>To me, the comparison with Linux is unhelpful, since Sun are opening a previously proprietary, heavily trademarked codebase rather than starting from scratch as Linux (or MySQL for that matter) did.

From where I'm sat, any hesitation on the road to freedom (heh) can be blamed on that. 

The Indiana shambles seems to be because Sun is a company rather than a dictatorship. 
Statements coming out of certain mid-management were pounced on as though they were the word of God rather than one opinion among many.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the comparison with Linux is unhelpful, since Sun are opening a previously proprietary, heavily trademarked codebase rather than starting from scratch as Linux (or MySQL for that matter) did.</p>
<p>From where I&#8217;m sat, any hesitation on the road to freedom (heh) can be blamed on that. </p>
<p>The Indiana shambles seems to be because Sun is a company rather than a dictatorship.<br />
Statements coming out of certain mid-management were pounced on as though they were the word of God rather than one opinion among many.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318553</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318553</guid>
		<description>I think the entire Open Solaris verses Linux is a full fledged nonsensical mess and a morass of personalities that have their own definition of "control".

Some of Sun's previous mistakes and statements have led to confusion of where Sun stands in relation to Open Source, granted. However, since Jonathan Schwartz has come to the leadership position, not only can you listen to what Mr. Schwartz says about Open source, but look at what Sun has done since he is steering the ship.

Sun has release Java under GPL. They are releasing other key technologies under GPL as well as other Open Source license. They have been more than generous with the Open Source community, with Open Office and other vital key components to Open Source success. Schwartz has stated many times that Open Source is Sun's future and given interviews on why he believes this.

Technologically, both Sun's Solaris and Linux are superb OSes. Linux is better and far more advanced on the Desktop, while I would give Sun's Solaris a slight edge on the Server. 

Solaris has been running the Enterprise for years and they have done a great job of situating Solaris for Enterprise large scale deployments.  Solaris has a little better monitoring tools.

Solaris has more recognition in the corporate world, but that is changing. I love both and I would have no hesitation deploying either with confidence.

However, Open Solaris has some work to do. No doubt it is getting there, but is not to the level of Solaris 10 yet. In the current case I would feel better deploying Linux than Open Solaris. Open Solaris !=Solaris, currently.

As you stated, competition is a good thing. It will only serve to make each better and make Microsoft servers almost irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the entire Open Solaris verses Linux is a full fledged nonsensical mess and a morass of personalities that have their own definition of &#8220;control&#8221;.</p>
<p>Some of Sun&#8217;s previous mistakes and statements have led to confusion of where Sun stands in relation to Open Source, granted. However, since Jonathan Schwartz has come to the leadership position, not only can you listen to what Mr. Schwartz says about Open source, but look at what Sun has done since he is steering the ship.</p>
<p>Sun has release Java under GPL. They are releasing other key technologies under GPL as well as other Open Source license. They have been more than generous with the Open Source community, with Open Office and other vital key components to Open Source success. Schwartz has stated many times that Open Source is Sun&#8217;s future and given interviews on why he believes this.</p>
<p>Technologically, both Sun&#8217;s Solaris and Linux are superb OSes. Linux is better and far more advanced on the Desktop, while I would give Sun&#8217;s Solaris a slight edge on the Server. </p>
<p>Solaris has been running the Enterprise for years and they have done a great job of situating Solaris for Enterprise large scale deployments.  Solaris has a little better monitoring tools.</p>
<p>Solaris has more recognition in the corporate world, but that is changing. I love both and I would have no hesitation deploying either with confidence.</p>
<p>However, Open Solaris has some work to do. No doubt it is getting there, but is not to the level of Solaris 10 yet. In the current case I would feel better deploying Linux than Open Solaris. Open Solaris !=Solaris, currently.</p>
<p>As you stated, competition is a good thing. It will only serve to make each better and make Microsoft servers almost irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: sysadmn</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318541</link>
		<dc:creator>sysadmn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/02/20/linux-vs-opensolarisagain-the-qa/#comment-318541</guid>
		<description>It would be nice if the appearance of ZFS in OS X, Darwin, and BSD would be acknowledge.  Here is one of the most profound pieces of technology in years - right up there with virtualization, and it's been given to competitors.  Ditto with Dtrace - it is a game changer, and you can use the source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be nice if the appearance of ZFS in OS X, Darwin, and BSD would be acknowledge.  Here is one of the most profound pieces of technology in years - right up there with virtualization, and it&#8217;s been given to competitors.  Ditto with Dtrace - it is a game changer, and you can use the source.</p>
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