<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Microsoft Submits its Office Open XML Format to Ecma: The Q&amp;A</title>
	<atom:link href="http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/</link>
	<description>because technology is just another ecosystem</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 00:23:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Governor's MonkChips</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1387</link>
		<dc:creator>James Governor's MonkChips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1387</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Why Microsoft Office XML could be a boon for MONO&lt;/strong&gt;

If Microsoft wants to use ECMA standardisation as an argument for openstandardness (like open handedness, geddit), then it may have to cut the chilling effects that have so far held back Mono in production environments.&#160;The idea is put forward in...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Why Microsoft Office XML could be a boon for MONO</strong></p>
<p>If Microsoft wants to use ECMA standardisation as an argument for openstandardness (like open handedness, geddit), then it may have to cut the chilling effects that have so far held back Mono in production environments.&nbsp;The idea is put forward in&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaime Cardoso</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1386</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaime Cardoso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1386</guid>
		<description>Have you ever seen anyone&#039;s email client having problems accessing anyone&#039;s email server (until you throuw outlook and Exchange into the mix)? 
Have you ever seen an LDAP query fail because the LDAP server wasn&#039;t supported? I&#039;m sorry but, &quot;Microsoft has the same problems of interoperability than anyone else&quot; is simply wrong.
Also, because I&#039;ve seen a million times from Microsoft the standard can&#039;t be used because it doesn&#039;t do some stuff, I never saw them being specific and History proved that a lie (We need MAPI , IMAP isn&#039;t good enough, we need AD, LDAP isn&#039;t good enough, we need SMB, NFS isn&#039;t good enough) since never the MS protocol actually brought anything new, I simply ask Microsoft to be specific and give us one (1) example of a missing functionality in ODF. 
Of course no Organization ever supported interoperability until the first time it did, this may be MS&#039;s time and, of course that MS is free to choose any format it likes but, if they decide the need to explain their choices, they entitle me to question the arguments.
This weblog is in the A-list for crying out loud. Does that mean that from the thousands of people reading this NO ONE can provide 1 example of missing functionality of ODF required by MS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever seen anyone&#8217;s email client having problems accessing anyone&#8217;s email server (until you throuw outlook and Exchange into the mix)?<br />
Have you ever seen an LDAP query fail because the LDAP server wasn&#8217;t supported? I&#8217;m sorry but, &#8220;Microsoft has the same problems of interoperability than anyone else&#8221; is simply wrong.<br />
Also, because I&#8217;ve seen a million times from Microsoft the standard can&#8217;t be used because it doesn&#8217;t do some stuff, I never saw them being specific and History proved that a lie (We need MAPI , IMAP isn&#8217;t good enough, we need AD, LDAP isn&#8217;t good enough, we need SMB, NFS isn&#8217;t good enough) since never the MS protocol actually brought anything new, I simply ask Microsoft to be specific and give us one (1) example of a missing functionality in ODF.<br />
Of course no Organization ever supported interoperability until the first time it did, this may be MS&#8217;s time and, of course that MS is free to choose any format it likes but, if they decide the need to explain their choices, they entitle me to question the arguments.<br />
This weblog is in the A-list for crying out loud. Does that mean that from the thousands of people reading this NO ONE can provide 1 example of missing functionality of ODF required by MS?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Champion</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1385</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Champion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1385</guid>
		<description>I heard Brian Jones discuss this the other day at XML 2005: There is a *lossy* conversion possible from MS Office format to ODF.  ODF can&#039;t represent everything in the MS Office formats.  Word may not be able to represent some things in ODF, I&#039;m not sure if I heard him correctly. Any future MS Office &quot;Save As ODF&quot; feature would presumably have a dialog saying that some information would be lost, much as it does with standard HTML today.

I&#039;m not competent to discuss the technical mapping or the licensing issues.  All I&#039;m taking issue with is the &quot;reinvent the wheel&quot; bit.  My position is that there isn&#039;t a REAL standard document format to reinvent; OASIS calling it a &quot;standard&quot; plants a flag in the sand but that&#039;s all.  There are so many purported standards on the Web that one needs real industry credibility and an organization&#039;s imprimatur to make it so. ODF may well get that credibility before long when multiple real shipping products are interoperating smoothly with diverse real user data, but that hasn&#039;t happened yet AFAIK.

I was as skeptical as you are about MS&#039;s commitment to interoperability a few years ago. I remember having a nice rant along the lines of your comment at my then-boss in about 1997 when MS jumped on the XML bandwagon.  His response was something like &quot;Microsoft has all the same interoperability problems across platforms and applications and versions within its ecosystem as the rest of us do between their ecosystem and the rest of the world.&quot; Everything I&#039;ve seen since then has confirmed his analysis.  Office 2003 was one of the things that finally changed that perception for me. Whatever the motivation, and whatever nits wants to pick with the format and licensing, Office 2003&#039;s XML format is used by lots of customers to build real interoperability with other systems and applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard Brian Jones discuss this the other day at XML 2005: There is a *lossy* conversion possible from MS Office format to ODF.  ODF can&#8217;t represent everything in the MS Office formats.  Word may not be able to represent some things in ODF, I&#8217;m not sure if I heard him correctly. Any future MS Office &#8220;Save As ODF&#8221; feature would presumably have a dialog saying that some information would be lost, much as it does with standard HTML today.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not competent to discuss the technical mapping or the licensing issues.  All I&#8217;m taking issue with is the &#8220;reinvent the wheel&#8221; bit.  My position is that there isn&#8217;t a REAL standard document format to reinvent; OASIS calling it a &#8220;standard&#8221; plants a flag in the sand but that&#8217;s all.  There are so many purported standards on the Web that one needs real industry credibility and an organization&#8217;s imprimatur to make it so. ODF may well get that credibility before long when multiple real shipping products are interoperating smoothly with diverse real user data, but that hasn&#8217;t happened yet AFAIK.</p>
<p>I was as skeptical as you are about MS&#8217;s commitment to interoperability a few years ago. I remember having a nice rant along the lines of your comment at my then-boss in about 1997 when MS jumped on the XML bandwagon.  His response was something like &#8220;Microsoft has all the same interoperability problems across platforms and applications and versions within its ecosystem as the rest of us do between their ecosystem and the rest of the world.&#8221; Everything I&#8217;ve seen since then has confirmed his analysis.  Office 2003 was one of the things that finally changed that perception for me. Whatever the motivation, and whatever nits wants to pick with the format and licensing, Office 2003&#8242;s XML format is used by lots of customers to build real interoperability with other systems and applications.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaime Cardoso</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaime Cardoso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1384</guid>
		<description>Mike, I was kind of amazed with your sentence &quot;yet another attempt to impose a standard from the outside rather than evolve interoperability from the inside&quot;. 
Rather than evolve? I mean, when did Microsoft EVER did anything to promote interoperability? While MS office format was a Microsoft exclusive, that would be a problem to several people because they would be forced to choose between Windows and Office or see their hability of interchanging documents with the rest of the World hurt. 
&quot;so it wasn&#039;t obvious that more narrow application standards were needed&quot;: Those &quot;narrow application Standards weren&#039;t needed *BY* Microsoft, that&#039;s true. MS was clearly using the proprietary formats to lock in customers, not only to Office but to Windows (it looks like an Win-Win) but, for people outside MS, saying that &quot;narrow application support wasn&#039;t needed is like saying that Linux on the desktop doesn&#039;t exist.
Anyway, I think we all remember Microsoft saying that Migrating to ODF would be impossible because the format didn&#039;t allow for some required legacy features. I think we all also remember the MA conference when someone from MS said it would be too simple to convert an MS document to ODF. Now, I&#039;ll just seat back and wait to see if something cames out from this or was I just lied again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, I was kind of amazed with your sentence &#8220;yet another attempt to impose a standard from the outside rather than evolve interoperability from the inside&#8221;.<br />
Rather than evolve? I mean, when did Microsoft EVER did anything to promote interoperability? While MS office format was a Microsoft exclusive, that would be a problem to several people because they would be forced to choose between Windows and Office or see their hability of interchanging documents with the rest of the World hurt.<br />
&#8220;so it wasn&#8217;t obvious that more narrow application standards were needed&#8221;: Those &#8220;narrow application Standards weren&#8217;t needed *BY* Microsoft, that&#8217;s true. MS was clearly using the proprietary formats to lock in customers, not only to Office but to Windows (it looks like an Win-Win) but, for people outside MS, saying that &#8220;narrow application support wasn&#8217;t needed is like saying that Linux on the desktop doesn&#8217;t exist.<br />
Anyway, I think we all remember Microsoft saying that Migrating to ODF would be impossible because the format didn&#8217;t allow for some required legacy features. I think we all also remember the MA conference when someone from MS said it would be too simple to convert an MS document to ODF. Now, I&#8217;ll just seat back and wait to see if something cames out from this or was I just lied again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Champion</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1383</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Champion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1383</guid>
		<description>The only part of this that I&#039;m competent to talk about and with which I disagree is the bit about reinventing the wheel.  &quot;Microsoft had the opportunity (and still does) to participate in the ODF and chose not to. I don&#039;t know if it was a case of Not Invented Here or not, but it certainly looks that way to external observers.&quot;   As someone who was an external observer until a year ago, standardization works when  leading competitors with a real need to interoperate come together in a neutral place to smooth out the insignificant differences.  Standardization does not work when peripheral players get together to define The Real Standard that the industry had better support.  The exceptions are things like HTML and RSS that had immense mindshare / marketshare before anyone worried much about whether they were &quot;standards&quot; or not, and the bigger fish found it expedient to just join the parade.  

I&#039;ll guess (not having been at Microsoft at the time) that when the ODF activity started up, the MS Office people thought something like &quot;yet another attempt to impose a standard from the outside rather than evolve interoperability from the inside ... bozo_bit = TRUE.&quot; I personally think that was shortsighted (in hindsight of course), but in my day job I have to worry about this kind of thing and it&#039;s hard to do. There are way too many purported standards out there for even a big company that wanted to Do The Right Thing to take seriously.  After all, the whole point of standardization is lost if there are so many &quot;standards&quot; that they don&#039;t offer real stability and interoperability. 

Another consideration is that one size simply does not fit all.  Standardizing common denominator generic office app formats is fine and arguably hits an 80/20 point, but a major design consideration for Office 2003 is to support custom schemas / stylesheets tailored to the needs of individual customers.  Until the whole issue became politicized, I suspect that the need for an official standard that covered the 80% case just wasn&#039;t obvious to people paying more attention to the &quot;interesting&quot; 20%

Finally, many disagree, but there was a very strong sense when Office 2003 was announced  and beta&#039;d 3 years ago that the appropriate standards were XML, XML Schema, and XSLT.  Office 2003 supported *those* standards, so it wasn&#039;t obvious that more narrow application standards were needed.  Of course that is XML geek-think ... but Jean Paoli was an SGML/XML geek long before most of us had heard of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only part of this that I&#8217;m competent to talk about and with which I disagree is the bit about reinventing the wheel.  &#8220;Microsoft had the opportunity (and still does) to participate in the ODF and chose not to. I don&#8217;t know if it was a case of Not Invented Here or not, but it certainly looks that way to external observers.&#8221;   As someone who was an external observer until a year ago, standardization works when  leading competitors with a real need to interoperate come together in a neutral place to smooth out the insignificant differences.  Standardization does not work when peripheral players get together to define The Real Standard that the industry had better support.  The exceptions are things like HTML and RSS that had immense mindshare / marketshare before anyone worried much about whether they were &#8220;standards&#8221; or not, and the bigger fish found it expedient to just join the parade.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll guess (not having been at Microsoft at the time) that when the ODF activity started up, the MS Office people thought something like &#8220;yet another attempt to impose a standard from the outside rather than evolve interoperability from the inside &#8230; bozo_bit = TRUE.&#8221; I personally think that was shortsighted (in hindsight of course), but in my day job I have to worry about this kind of thing and it&#8217;s hard to do. There are way too many purported standards out there for even a big company that wanted to Do The Right Thing to take seriously.  After all, the whole point of standardization is lost if there are so many &#8220;standards&#8221; that they don&#8217;t offer real stability and interoperability. </p>
<p>Another consideration is that one size simply does not fit all.  Standardizing common denominator generic office app formats is fine and arguably hits an 80/20 point, but a major design consideration for Office 2003 is to support custom schemas / stylesheets tailored to the needs of individual customers.  Until the whole issue became politicized, I suspect that the need for an official standard that covered the 80% case just wasn&#8217;t obvious to people paying more attention to the &#8220;interesting&#8221; 20%</p>
<p>Finally, many disagree, but there was a very strong sense when Office 2003 was announced  and beta&#8217;d 3 years ago that the appropriate standards were XML, XML Schema, and XSLT.  Office 2003 supported *those* standards, so it wasn&#8217;t obvious that more narrow application standards were needed.  Of course that is XML geek-think &#8230; but Jean Paoli was an SGML/XML geek long before most of us had heard of it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: baus</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/11/22/microsoft-submits-its-office-open-xml-format-to-ecma-the-qa/comment-page-1/#comment-1382</link>
		<dc:creator>baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 02:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=665#comment-1382</guid>
		<description>For what it is worth here&#039;s my take: Microsoft has a lot of pressure to support an Open Standard from their customers like Massachusetts, so they have to do something.  

By going with their own standard, they are able to compete for those contracts, but they ensure that it will take a seriously long time for anybody competitors to implement their standard.  It could be years.  Plus if their standard maps to internal structures of MS Office more readily than ODF, then they could get an implementation out the door much faster.

Microsoft wants to claim to be playing nice with Open Standards as long as they control the standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it is worth here&#8217;s my take: Microsoft has a lot of pressure to support an Open Standard from their customers like Massachusetts, so they have to do something.  </p>
<p>By going with their own standard, they are able to compete for those contracts, but they ensure that it will take a seriously long time for anybody competitors to implement their standard.  It could be years.  Plus if their standard maps to internal structures of MS Office more readily than ODF, then they could get an implementation out the door much faster.</p>
<p>Microsoft wants to claim to be playing nice with Open Standards as long as they control the standard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using memcached
Object Caching 315/316 objects using xcache

Served from: redmonk.com @ 2012-05-26 05:57:12 -->
