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	<title>Comments on: Breaking the Relational Chains</title>
	<atom:link href="http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/</link>
	<description>because technology is just another ecosystem</description>
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		<title>By: stephen o&#039;grady</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/comment-page-1/#comment-482</link>
		<dc:creator>stephen o&#039;grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=345#comment-482</guid>
		<description>mike: my intention was not to imply that these technologies are new; if that&#039;s what came across, i messed up somewhere. as i mention, vendors like Software AG, Sleepycat et al have been around for years, and done ok for themselves. OO DB&#039;s have likewise been around for eons - though on another note one of the challenges, IMO, for a vendor like DB4Objects is to shed some of the baggage that comes along with that label. so what&#039;s not new is the technology, but the acceptance of that technology.  
 
what it comes down to, IMO, is the typical enterprise conservativism. enterprises embrace new technologies slowly (if at all, in some cases), and the data layer (unlike the application layer, one could argue) has *always* been a strategic decision. that caution, however, is increasingly being tempered by a willingness to consider that in some situations, an RDBMS is perhaps not the only hammer for that nail. perhaps your experience at Software AG was different, but that - to us - is very different, because it could herald the entrance of non-relational (XML or otherwise) data stores as a mainstream option.  
 
to answer your last question, it&#039;s not about products, it&#039;s about need. given that the relational market is fairly competitive, we have yet to speak to anyone who&#039;s considering alternatives for the sake of considering alternatives. instead, it&#039;s driven by needs that are not being satisfactorily met. whoever supplies that functionality will be considered - vendor, open source, or otherwise. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike: my intention was not to imply that these technologies are new; if that&#039;s what came across, i messed up somewhere. as i mention, vendors like Software AG, Sleepycat et al have been around for years, and done ok for themselves. OO DB&#039;s have likewise been around for eons &#8211; though on another note one of the challenges, IMO, for a vendor like DB4Objects is to shed some of the baggage that comes along with that label. so what&#039;s not new is the technology, but the acceptance of that technology.  </p>
<p>what it comes down to, IMO, is the typical enterprise conservativism. enterprises embrace new technologies slowly (if at all, in some cases), and the data layer (unlike the application layer, one could argue) has *always* been a strategic decision. that caution, however, is increasingly being tempered by a willingness to consider that in some situations, an RDBMS is perhaps not the only hammer for that nail. perhaps your experience at Software AG was different, but that &#8211; to us &#8211; is very different, because it could herald the entrance of non-relational (XML or otherwise) data stores as a mainstream option.  </p>
<p>to answer your last question, it&#039;s not about products, it&#039;s about need. given that the relational market is fairly competitive, we have yet to speak to anyone who&#039;s considering alternatives for the sake of considering alternatives. instead, it&#039;s driven by needs that are not being satisfactorily met. whoever supplies that functionality will be considered &#8211; vendor, open source, or otherwise. </p>
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		<title>By: Mike Champion</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/comment-page-1/#comment-481</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Champion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=345#comment-481</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think developers are beginning to loosen the relational shackles just a bit&quot;. 
 
Hmmm ... it seems to me (although I spent most of the last 5 years at Software AG so I might be biased) that developers loosened the relational shackles some time ago.  (C. J. Date and the other cheery folks at dbdebunk dot com of course think developers never locked themselved in the shackles in the first place, but that&#039;s another matter).  In any event, multivalued databases (e.g. Pick) and OO databases have been around for a long time, and XML DBMS are fairly mature after 5 years or so.  Now the major DB vendors are introducing &quot;native&quot; XML capabilities, merging in full text capabilities, and so on.  Are people looking for RDBMS alternatives, or expecting &quot;databases&quot; to handle all sorts of structured, unstructured, and semi-structured data within the same products, APIs, etc.? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;I think developers are beginning to loosen the relational shackles just a bit&quot;. </p>
<p>Hmmm &#8230; it seems to me (although I spent most of the last 5 years at Software AG so I might be biased) that developers loosened the relational shackles some time ago.  (C. J. Date and the other cheery folks at dbdebunk dot com of course think developers never locked themselved in the shackles in the first place, but that&#039;s another matter).  In any event, multivalued databases (e.g. Pick) and OO databases have been around for a long time, and XML DBMS are fairly mature after 5 years or so.  Now the major DB vendors are introducing &quot;native&quot; XML capabilities, merging in full text capabilities, and so on.  Are people looking for RDBMS alternatives, or expecting &quot;databases&quot; to handle all sorts of structured, unstructured, and semi-structured data within the same products, APIs, etc.? </p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/comment-page-1/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=345#comment-480</guid>
		<description>depending on how you define wire formats, i either agree or disagree with you. there&#039;s no question, however, that distinctions between storage media and the data persistence mechanisms that sit on top of them have changed; one has only to look at your firms ZFS to know that.  
 
i would probably take exception as well that only the time component differs; one thing we&#039;re seeing more of is efforts to prioritize based on payload information: giving voice packets a higher priority, for example. storage, on the other hand, has had these notions for a long time - and of late we&#039;ve seen things like Centera and DR450 take that to the next level.  
 
but on the last point, we&#039;re definitely in agreement: choice is definitely a welcome development, but brings with it substantial responsibility.  
 
to put it another way: no one gets fired for going with a relational DB, but you might for picking something new. the trick, as always, is to understand the relative merits, strengths and weaknesses of individual platforms and to design accordingly. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>depending on how you define wire formats, i either agree or disagree with you. there&#039;s no question, however, that distinctions between storage media and the data persistence mechanisms that sit on top of them have changed; one has only to look at your firms ZFS to know that.  </p>
<p>i would probably take exception as well that only the time component differs; one thing we&#039;re seeing more of is efforts to prioritize based on payload information: giving voice packets a higher priority, for example. storage, on the other hand, has had these notions for a long time &#8211; and of late we&#039;ve seen things like Centera and DR450 take that to the next level.  </p>
<p>but on the last point, we&#039;re definitely in agreement: choice is definitely a welcome development, but brings with it substantial responsibility.  </p>
<p>to put it another way: no one gets fired for going with a relational DB, but you might for picking something new. the trick, as always, is to understand the relative merits, strengths and weaknesses of individual platforms and to design accordingly. </p>
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		<title>By: Dan Brackett</title>
		<link>http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2005/03/07/breaking-the-relational-chains/comment-page-1/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Brackett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redmonk.com/sogrady/wp/?p=345#comment-479</guid>
		<description>I think that the distinction between wire formats and storage media will continue to blur.  The Architecture Astronaut in me notes that only the time component differs between wire formats and storage, and sometimes then not that much -- look at the unix tools tradition of using temp files for transient, potentially asynchronous, inter-tool communication.  DB4Objects leans this way, too -- &quot;treat your storage the same way you&#039;d treat anything else: as an object.&quot;  Python&#039;s object-serialization mechanism feels very similar to me, too (check Bram Cohen&#039;s site, or just open a .torrent, for a pretty lucid demonstration of python dict serialization).   
 
All that said, developers still need to be aware of the fact that different storage mechanisms have very different tradeoffs in terms of reliability and performance and indexability and so forth.  Yes, choice is good -- but choice needs to be educated, or we users will all suffer. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the distinction between wire formats and storage media will continue to blur.  The Architecture Astronaut in me notes that only the time component differs between wire formats and storage, and sometimes then not that much &#8212; look at the unix tools tradition of using temp files for transient, potentially asynchronous, inter-tool communication.  DB4Objects leans this way, too &#8212; &quot;treat your storage the same way you&#039;d treat anything else: as an object.&quot;  Python&#039;s object-serialization mechanism feels very similar to me, too (check Bram Cohen&#039;s site, or just open a .torrent, for a pretty lucid demonstration of python dict serialization).   </p>
<p>All that said, developers still need to be aware of the fact that different storage mechanisms have very different tradeoffs in terms of reliability and performance and indexability and so forth.  Yes, choice is good &#8212; but choice needs to be educated, or we users will all suffer. </p>
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